President Barack Obama did not strattle the fence when he was asked how he and his wife felt about the Gay Rights "so-called marriage" issue in the nation. He was not silent, nor lukewarm as other politicians have been when they are in a campaign fight such as he was in. It makes one wonder if it was the Gay Republicans that was behind the "Reverened Wright" attack smear campaign.

I was wondering though....about why President Obama left it to each independent state on how they choose to handle the Gay Rights "so-called marriage" issue. I was thiinking about Moses......when Christ said, it was because of the hardness of the hearts of evil men who were putting their wives aways for evil reasons, is why Moses was "forced" to write "bills of divorcement". Was it only to keep "civil order" to maintain a civility of such in such a chaotic evil society of immoraility with disobedience evil men who would not hearken to Moses/God?

Are not these Gays co-habatating in such a way, that they could fill of the courts with civil actions against each other? Would civil unions keep law and order of such for these evil people who need to be under law for legal reasons in the future?
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History of US law Regarding Sodomy

On June 26, 2003, the US Supreme Court in a 6-3 decision struck down the Texas same-sex sodomy law, ruling that this private sexual conduct is protected by the liberty rights implicit in the due process clause of the United States Constitution. (See Lawrence v. Texas.) This decision invalidated all state sodomy laws insofar as they applied to noncommercial conduct in private between consenting civilian adults, and overruled an earlier ruling from 1986 in which Georgia's sodomy law had been upheld. (Bowers v. Hardwick.)

Before that 2003 ruling, 27 states, the District of Columbia and 4 territories had repealed their sodomy laws by legislative action, 9 states had had them overturned or invalidated by state court action, 4 states still had same-sex laws, and 10 states, Puerto Rico and the U.S. military had laws applying to all regardless of gender. In 2005 Puerto Rico repealed the sodomy law and in 2006 Missouri legislatures decided to repeal the anti-homosexual "conduct" laws - leaving only three states yet to repeal anti-homosexual "conduct" laws: Oklahoma, Kansas and Texas.

In the U.S. military, the United States Army Court of Criminal Appeals has ruled that the Lawrence v. Texas decision applies to Article 125 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, the statute banning sodomy. In both United States v. Stirewalt and United States v. Marcum, the court ruled that the "conduct falls within the liberty interest identified by the Supreme Court." However, the court went on to say that despite Lawrence's application to the military, Article 125 can still be upheld in cases where there are "factors unique to the military environment" which would place the conduct "outside any protected liberty interest recognized in Lawrence." Examples of such factors could be fraternization, public sexual behavior, or any other factors that would adversely affect good order and discipline.

United States v. Meno and United States v. Bullock are two known cases in which consensual sodomy convictions have been overturned in military courts under the Lawrence precedent.

Prior to 1962, sodomy was a felony in every state, punished by a lengthy term of imprisonment and/or hard labor. In 1962 Illinois became the first state to end its sodomy laws, almost a decade before another state followed. Over the years, many of the states that did not repeal their sodomy laws had enacted legislation reducing the penalty. Immediately prior to the Lawrence decision in 2003, the penalty for violating a sodomy law varied very widely from jurisdiction to jurisdiction among those states retaining their sodomy laws. The most harsh penalties were in the state of Idaho, where a person convicted of sodomy could theoretically earn a life sentence. Michigan followed, with a maximum penalty of 15 years imprisonment (repeat offenders got life), this was later invalidated by a Court case under Human Rights vs Kelly.

Around the time of the 2003 Supreme Court decision, the laws in most US states were no longer enforced, or were very selectively enforced.
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I do not know if this is why Obama made such a statement. What is clear....is that these disobedient, proud, sel-glorying, arrogant, and immoral Gays are in no wise willing to be subject unto/under God's law of nature, or Christ law of grace and truth, or under the state laws of the land regarding sodomy. They must, and have to be under some law of restraints in their evil lifestyle of such, but in the end they will be judged by their creator. And if they don't repent/change, and obey the glorious gospel of Christ they will be lost.

President Barack Obama and his wife, took a stand a said they believe that marriage is only between a man and a woman.

None of this matters. Some day, gays will be permitted to marry and they will have equal rights. No matter how much you hate it, call them evil, or cry against it, it is going to happen. Get used to it.

Do you also believe that marriage between a christian and a nonchristian should be illegal? Should they be without rights since this is also against God according to your doctrine?

Should all unrepentant sinners be stripped of their rights simply because they are living sinful lives anyway? You teach that Catholics are going to hell for being Catholics and not Church of Christ christians. Atheists completely reject God outright. Lets have their rights taken away while we are at it, no?

You are fighting a losing battle with the gay issue and you seem to be obsessed with it (what's up with that?) Let them alone and let them do what they do. You can't stop it.

The President is not there to make sure your Church-of-Christ beliefs are upheld. He does not give a flying fig newton about your doctrinal beliefs, nor should he care. That is left up to your church. Religious doctrines have not place in politics.

A strong and necessary repoof. Amen and Amen!

Perhaps some day we, as member of the Body of Christ, will learn to "MIND OUR OWN BUSINESS" in the churches and let the PRESIDENT and other "governing authorities" on a state and national lever "judge" according to the purpose(s) for which God "raises them up!" (Romans 13:1-7)

As it is written,

"For what have I to do with JUDGING THOSE also who are OUTSIDE? Do you NOT JUDGE THOSE who are INSIDE? But those who are OUTSIDE GOD JUDGES..." (I Corinthians 5:12, 13a).

Firstly, it is God and Christ through the New Testament who have made it a very clear distinctions that "sodomy"/unnatural sexual acts between two women or two men, are wicked, and against nature.

The first chapter of Romans teaches on this, as well to validate that the Old Testament in this respect was not destroyed. Now matter how much you become scornful of this truth from God, you cannot nullify it in no wise......and they will be juddged by God in the last days if they do not repent and obey the glorious gospel of Jesus Christ. If you want to open up another thread for the other sins you are talking about, do so. However, it most be duly noted that, Gays are the only wicked sinners who campaigns and march through the streets sounding their voices in unisome that their wickedness is "ordained" by God who sanctions the vile acts that they do.

That old time gospel
In the midst of a crooked and perverse generation. Phl 2:15

Raymond E. Wiggins Sr. Mar 5th, 2009 - 9:44 AM Re: Is there any wisdom/scriptures in President Obama saying he will leave it to each state how they

RE: Perhaps some day we, as member of the Body of Christ, will learn to "MIND OUR OWN BUSINESS" in the churches and let the PRESIDENT and other "governing authorities" on a state and national lever "judge" according to the purpose(s) for which God "raises them up!" (Romans 13:1-7)
As it is written,
For what have I to do with JUDGING THOSE also who are OUTSIDE? Do you NOT JUDGE THOSE who are INSIDE? But those who are OUTSIDE GOD JUDGES..." (I Corinthians 5:12, 13a).
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There are many who use the above scriptures in error, to make the false charge that God do not want his saints to make judgements of the world, or of the evil deeds that men do in it. In truth, we are commanded by God to "rightly" divide the word of truth....and we see from the following scriptures that Wiggins above, is teaching I Co 5:12-13 in error in this respective.

For God clearly gives the saints of God the charge to judge the world when we are teaching and preaching his wordm or else how will the simple and ignorant know what sin and wickedness is. We see and hear clearly that those who are wicked desire that the world become wickekd as they are, as we have just witnessed from the two brothers above, that the church should remain silent, and not teach the following scriptures from God's word. For in I Jo 2:15-16, we teach and judge in righteousness that "all that is in the world is the lust of the flesh, the lust of the world, and the pride of life that are not of God", and that these things war against our flesh.

1Jo 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
v.For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

What's in the world? Gays, and the word of God must be preached in season, out of season, with strong rebuked of that which we are told to judged the Gays by in Romans 1:26-32 speaks boldly against. Yes indeed the sainst of God are told to judge the world in righteous judgment. We must "rightly" divide the world of truth, and teach and preach the word of truth from God's word about vile and wicked men who oppose God in their rebellion and false teaching about what wicked really is.

Thus saith the Lord.........

Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto .....*vile* affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

vile: loathsome; disgusting, unpleasant or objectionable: degrading; wretched: a vile existence.
Morally depraved; ignoble or.....*wicked

wicked: Evil by nature and in practice; malicious or mischievous; highly offensive; obnoxious: a wicked stench.

con't. of Romans 1:27-32

v.27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
v.28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

*v.29 Being filled with all unrighteousness,
fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
v.30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
v.31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
v.32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

That old time gospel
In the midst of a crooked and perverse generation. Phil 2:15

Raymond E. Wiggins Sr. Mar 5th, 2009 - 9:44 AM Re: Is there any wisdom/scriptures in President Obama saying he will leave it to each state how they

Re: Perhaps some day we, as member of the Body of Christ, will learn to "MIND OUR OWN BUSINESS" in the churches and let the PRESIDENT and other "governing authorities" on a state and national lever "judge" according to the purpose(s) for which God "raises them up!" (Romans 13:1-7)
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Mind our business? Indeed not! Wiggins do err not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For this is contrary to the scriptures. He do not understand the "providence of God" in how He will accomplish is purpose, will work through governments and men, and acts, and even place his own people in governments and principalities to do so as well, as he did in the old testament, and with the following list of memembers of the church who are in these offices of the land. It is God who has made it possible for us to be able to have a say in government/wordl affairs by various ways in which one of them, is by voting, as many of us did by voting against Gay/Homosexual marriages, which is pure wickedness and perversness. For we also have members of the church that are senators, state representatives, mayors, and judges, who God have also set in these for his purpose.

John Cornyn - Republican Senator from Texas (2002-present)
Ted Poe - U.S. Representative from Texas (2005-present)
Fred Thompson - former U.S. Senator (Repub.) from Tennessee; now actor, who plays the District Attorney on the TV series "Law and Order" (raised in CoC)
James Hahn -mayor of Los Angeles, California
Kenneth Starr - lawyer, judge; chief Independent Counsel charged with investigating Pres. Bill Clinton, leading to the President's impeachment
Jim Ryun - Congressman, Olympic miler, 4 min. (may be ICC member)
Fred D. Gray - attorney who defended Rosa Parks

Are there any among your "fellowship" who are [practicing] adultery, fornication, homosexuality, idolatry, hatred, debates, envy and if there be any other thing contrary to holiness?

When we start our "judgements" IN HOUSE FIRST,then we will be able to see CLEARLY to "judge" outside the house if God so "sends" us to prophetically do so!

"You,therefore, who teach another, DO YOU NOT TEACH YOURSELF? You who preach that a man should not steal, DO YOU STEAL? You who say, "Do not commit adultery," DO YOU COMMIT ADULTERY? You who abhor idols, DO YOU ROB TEMPLES?" (Romans 2:24)

This type of hypocrisy, of which WE ALL HAVE BEEN GUILTY OF is [ONE] OF THE REASONS why we are not "INHERITING" the MANIFESTATIONS OF SPIRITUAL GIFTS in our churches. We ALL NEED TO REPENT of our unholy thoughts and deeds!

Wiggins, the ploy and stance you have taken is not of God, but is of the wicked one, the devil. For as you have read before, Gays/Homosexuals are the only wicked sinners who publicly campaigns, and go plubicly marching through the streets preaching ****able teachings against the will of God, and the doctrine of Christ, saying that there vile and wicked lifestyle is of God, who sanctions their wicked deeds.

If you know of any adulterers, fornicators, rapists, murderers, drug dealers, and any other sinners, that publicly campaign through the streets, crying out loud that these sins and wickedness are of God, who sanctions them, and have made them to be such as these Gays/Homosexual say and teach....put it on this board.

This is the distinct difference in the distorted argument you raised in that of sinners and the Homosexuals who are called Gays who are sinners who are wicked, and who openly, and defiantly oppose God.

Your own tongue have testified against you that you, sir.

That old time gospel
In the midst of a crooked and perverse generation. Phil 2:15

Re:If you know of any adulterers, fornicators, rapists, murderers, drug dealers, and any other sinners, that publicly campaign through the streets, crying out loud that these sins and wickedness are of God, who sanctions them, and have made them to be such as these Gays/Homosexual say and teach....put it on this board. --That old time gospel

You and I both know those who "PUBLICLY PARADE" themselves IN THE CHURCHES across the country UNDISCIPLINED and such were SOME OF US and some STILL DO as they say, "From the pulpits to the pew."

But, of course, you don't want to talk about our "dirty laundry" in the churches do you?

These red flags emphasizes the distinct
difference between sinners, and the wicked sinners of Gays/Homosexuals who publicly campaigns, and go plubicly marching through the streets preaching d-a-m-nable teachings against the will of God, and the doctrine of Christ, saying that there vile and wicked lifestyle is of God, who sanctions their wicked deeds.


Gays/Homosexuals are the only wicked sinners who publicly campaigns, and go plubicly marching through the streets preaching d-a-m-nable teachings against the will of God, and the doctrine of Christ, saying that there vile and wicked lifestyle is of God, who sanctions their wicked deeds.

If you know of any adulterers *preachers* or members, fornicating *preachers* or members, rapists who are *preachers* or members, murderers who are *preachers* or members, drug dealers *preachers* or members, and any other sinners, that publicly campaign through the streets, crying out loud that these sins and wickedness are of God, who sanctions them, and have made them to be such as these Gays/Homosexual say and teach....put it on this board.

This is the distinct difference in the distorted argument you raised in that of sinners and the Homosexuals who are called Gays who are sinners who are wicked, and who openly, and defiantly oppose God.

Your denial do not in any wise nullify this fact to be true, rather, your defense of the wicked will testify against you in the day of judgment, if you continue to to persecute the church and slander it with your malicious words, and false accusations, sir.

That old time gospel
In the midst of a crooked and perverse generation. Phil 2:15

What more can I say, you have put me to "silence" on this post.

Thank you for that post That old time gospel!! I also can appreciate and respect how you vigorously and plainly disputed the issue at hand. This issue is one of many where we, as the churches of Christ, have stopped fighting or contending for the faith and have allowed the devil to go on unabated advancing his deadly and deceitful heresies. I believe if we had more like yourself, who stand up for what is right, then the church, this nation, and the world would be better. I do know that the scripture prophesies that morality will continue to erode (2 Tim 3:13), but I know God is never pleased when we just hand over the reins of morality and righteousness over to the forces of evil without opposition. I believe we as christians should never rely solely on non-christians to make decisions between right and wrong, we are destined to get undesirable results and reap the many unintended, negative consequences. Christians (churches of christ) are the pillar and ground of truth (1 Tim 3:15). We are ambassadors of Christ, meaning God makes his appeals through us (2 Cor 5:20). So if anyone was to possess the ability to discern between those things that are wrong or right, destructive or beneficial, it ought to be the church.
If false doctrine is to be advanced, it should never be advanced with out a spiritual fight from God's people. For I believe we posses, even today, the same Holy Spirit as Paul who defended the Living God before the idolaters and philosophers of his day (Acts 17:16-23). I believe we serve the same God that Noah, the preacher of righteousness, did. Who preached the word even though it fell on the deaf ears of a generation of which "every imagination of the thoughts of [their] heart was only evil continually."

I don't believe any nation should ever construct there laws solely out of the Bible, because christianity is for those who have willingly submitted themselves to the service of the Lord. But I do believe that a nation's success and failure hinges on its righteousness before an all-seeing God. So though wickedness, and more specifically homosexuality, may be rampant, there's a difference between a nation having the knowledge of the existence of unrighteousness, and condoning or sanctioning unrighteousness that God abhors.

Proverbs 14:34
Righteousness exalteth a nation: but sin is a reproach to any people.

I just want to encourage you to keep on keeping on. May God bless you my fellowlaborer in the gospel.

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God did not call the Church to establish "THEOCRACY" in the United States of America or anywhere else on planet earth.

He called Israel to do that and they will in the coming THEOCRATIC GOVERNMENT of Messiah Jesus on the earth when the "Kingdom" is restored to Israel and the Lord sits on the Throne of His Glory in Jerusalem!

We live under a DEMOCRATIC GOVERNMENT here in the United States. It is a nation of diverse peoples who have been given the "CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT" to believe in ONE GOD, MANY gods, or NO GOD/gods at all!

Wherever sin abounds God's grace will abound toward us abundantly to deliver us from temptations, tests, and trials unto which we have been called!

The notion that Christians are not to be in government matters involving the general welfare of the nation they live in, is erroneous unsound teaching. The power of God, will make sure that his divine will, and purpose will be done by his providence through not only through the church, and will place his people in positions of power to affect his purpose, but also the world through acts, people, governments and principalities. And, for to this end, he has given us Titus 3:1, in order to let us know, that though we are of the citizens of the heavenly kingdom, we are also citizens of this nation. Therefore, Christians are instructed by God, to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work, regarding the world. This means we are to be civic minded when it is for a good work/cause. And, it is good that Christians, as citizens of this nation, to fulfill their obligation in securing the “general welfare” of this country, and to prevent anything that exalt itself against the will of God for all men, which the law gives us a way/means to do so, which is voting. It was every Christian's obligation to have voted yes for Proposition 8 to pass, which prohibits gay/homosexual marriages, which is contrary to the will of God.

Tts 3:1 Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work.

Revised do to typo errors........

The notion that Christians are not to be in involved in government matters involving the general welfare of the nation they live in, is erroneous unsound teaching. The power of God, will make sure that his divine will and purpose, will be done by his providence, that will be through not only by the church, he will also place his people in positions of power to affect his purpose.

God will acts, people, governments and principalities of the world to accomplish his purpose. And, to this end, he has given us Titus 3:1, in order to let us know, that though we are of the citizens of the heavenly kingdom, we are also citizens of this nation. Therefore, Christians are instructed by God, to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work, regarding the world. This means we are to be civic minded when it is for a good work/cause. And, it is good that Christians, as citizens of this nation, to fulfill their obligation in securing the “general welfare” of this country, and to prevent anything that exalt itself against the will of God for all men, which the law gives us a way/means to do so, which is voting. It was every Christian's obligation to have voted yes for Proposition 8 to pass, which prohibits gay/homosexual marriages, which is contrary to the will of God.

Titus 3:1 Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work.

Again you don't read thoroughly my post but you are QUICK to respond. Learn to be SWIFT TO HEAR or in this case SWIFT TO READ and SLOW to REBUT!

This is what I said in gist.

"When we start our "judgements" IN HOUSE FIRST,then we will be able to see CLEARLY to "judge" outside the house if God so "sends" us to prophetically do so!"

Wiggins:

Your stance is deeply flawed in the argument you are making, in what seem to be, a crafty attempt to dwart/coax many voters in the future, of not voting again, against the wicked lifestyle of the gays/homosexuality.

I already addressed your stance, on gays/homosexuals, who say that God sanctions their sinful and wicked lifestyle, and go marching through the streets, lying on God, saying that He made them to be homosexuals, and your stance on, those in the world who commit adultery and fornication, and those in the church that commit adultery and fornication, yet "do not" say that God sanctions their sinful adultery, and fornication, and "do not" say that God made them to be sinful adulterers and fornicators.

You are under the impression, that any Christian that sins, should not ever vote in goverment elections like Proposition 8, that stopped the "wickedness" of the gays/homosexuals from spreading, if Christians are still sinning.

If that was the case, the scriptures would not have testified to the act of what Rahab, the harlot did, by hiding those spies, because she had faith toward God, in sparing those men of God. I am sure that if the enemies of God would have found out about what she did in aiding those men of God, no doubt, they too, like you, would have held a bright light over Rahab's head, telling her she was an hypocrite, and doing evil herself, for being a harlot, so why is she taking the position in stopping the evil that the servants of king ofJericho wanted to do to the spies of God. Is not *****dom sinful as well, Wiggins.

Hbr 11:31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.

So then, people in the world who are sinful, and Christians who are sinful, who still have faith that homosexuality is evil, sinful, and wicked, have also taken the stance to stop the wickedness of the gays/homosexuals in being able to marry legally.

No doubt as well, you would have wanted king David of Israel to abdicate his throne, for committing that adultery with Bethsheba, and would have thought he was unfit to rule over God's people, and judge them as well. God dealt with his sins, but God did not stop him from ruling over Israel, and judging them.

It is evil, for anyone to aid those who are wicked and sinful, in an attempt to help laws to pass in favor of a lifestyle that is against the law of God, and the law of nature, as the gays/homosexual lifestyle.

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Re: You are under the impression, that any Christian that sins, should not ever vote in goverment elections like Proposition 8, that stopped the "wickedness" of the gays/homosexuals from spreading, if Christians are still sinning.

Where are these FALSE ACCUSATIONS coming from? Certainly not from the "Spirit of Truth!"

The following will show that you did indeed cast a bright light over those Christians that sin in the church, and called them, hypocrites, for voting to stop the gays/homosexuals from being able to marry legal. Advocating that the church and those Christians who sin, have to stop sin first among us, before we make the judgments, based by faith in God, that it is sinful and wicked, to give gay/homosexuals the right to marry legally. And, I am saying to you again, that men as yourself no doubt would have said King David have no right judging Israel, since he committed adultery. And, Rahab was a hypocrite for being a harlot, and made judgment that King Jericho's men were attempting to do evil, and stopped his plans.
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Raymond E. Wiggins Sr. Mar 6th, 2009 - 8:17 AM Re: Is there any wisdom/scriptures in President Obama saying he will leave it to each state how they

Are there any among your "fellowship" who are [practicing] adultery, fornication, homosexuality, idolatry, hatred, debates, envy and if there be any other thing contrary to holiness?

When we start our "judgements" IN HOUSE FIRST,then we will be able to see CLEARLY to "judge" outside the house if God so "sends" us to prophetically do so!

"You,therefore, who teach another, DO YOU NOT TEACH YOURSELF? You who preach that a man should not steal, DO YOU STEAL? You who say, "Do not commit adultery," DO YOU COMMIT ADULTERY? You who abhor idols, DO YOU ROB TEMPLES?" (Romans 2:24)

This type of hypocrisy, of which WE ALL HAVE BEEN GUILTY OF is [ONE] OF THE REASONS why we are not "INHERITING" the MANIFESTATIONS OF SPIRITUAL GIFTS in our churches.
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"This".....type of hypocrisy? What is ..."this"?

For a Christian to commit sin, or to be sinning, however, they vote to stopped wickedness from being exalted by the gays/homosexuals who want the law to grant them the right to have their sinful and vile wicked lifestyle to be legally moral and natural, in order for them to marry as a man and wife?

No, this is not more hypocrisy than what Rahab, the harlot did (though she was an harlot), when she by her faith in God, also stopped evil from happening to God's people, by her going against the King's order, and hid those spies.

Your own words have convicted you, Wiggins. For we have your own words that you have committed the falsehood, in which you have attempted to transfer onto me.

Moreover, Romans 2:24, that you used to validate your flawed argument, that Christians cannot teach, or preach God's word, or make judgments concerning evil to stop it from being exalted, until they stop sinning, was completely taken out of context.

God is telling us in Ro 2:24, to continue preaching/teaching his word, but in doing so, to also teach our self as well, and continue to speak out against sin, but stop sinning ourselves. For even Jesus Christ said that the Pharisees were evil, yet he told his disciples to do as the Pharisees say/teach, but not do their works, or as they do say. For Jesus said, they say, but they do not".

Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

Christ did not teach his disciples that the Pharisees, scribes, and chief priest that they should stop teaching the law. Likewise, God does not forbid Christians who are sinning to stop teaching his word, or to not lift a finger to stop evil, as Rahab did.

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Again, another FALSE ACCUSATION. If you will thoroughly read what I have written you will see not only in this post, but other post as well, I have always sought to INCLUDE MYSELF in the short comings of the BODY OF CHRIST. I understand I John 1:8-10 VERY WELL!

This IS what I wrote: (see above)

"This type of hypocrisy, of which WE ALL HAVE BEEN GUILTY OF is [ONE] OF THE REASONS why we are not "INHERITING" the MANIFESTATIONS OF SPIRITUAL GIFTS in our churches. We ALL NEED TO REPENT of our unholy thoughts and deeds!"

What you need to do is to learn to humble yourself and stop these FALSE ACCUSATIONS lest our Heavenly Father "rebuke you openly!"

So then, those ministers, and Christians that you said are in the church committing sin, did the right thing in voting to stop the gays/homosexuals from exalting their vile wicked lifestyle. You have given them an "evil report", but God has given them a "good report" in voting to pass Proposition 8. If you judge "these" Christians, you are at the same time, judging, and speaking against the scripture that said Rahab obtained a "good report" by the faith she demonstrated, in stopping evil from happening to God's people.

Hbr 11:31 By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace.
v.39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
v.40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

"This" is:

"...[HYPOCRITE!] First remove the PLANK from your OWN EYE, and then you WILL SEE clearly to remove the SPECK that is in your brother's eye." (Luke 6:42)

The principal is take care of FIRST THINGS FIRST!

We know what the "this" meant, Wiggins. At this point, I don't expect for you to own anything that the scriptures speaks to you. I am only glad that others who have a ear to hear, have the truth. And, that is......to remember what Rahab did is mention as a "good report" in the scriptures, and not hypocrisy, though she was a harlot, when she had the opportunity to stop evil from being done, in resisting the king, hiding those men of God who were spies.

To remember, though David sinned, God never removed him from his obligation in ruling his people, and judging them (though he sinned greatly). Finally, Christians who sin, likewise, still aught to fullful what ever responsibility, and obligations that they have, and that means civic responsibility, of voting to stop evil from being exalted by the gays/homosexuals.

You win!

Contrary, Wiggins....I don't want to win. I want to obtain a "good report", and want to be saved in the end as you do.

With all of your "rebuttals" I thought this was an "unofficial" debate authorized by you. Somebody must win when YOU debate right?

When I SHARE information and my testimonies for some STRANGE reason you think it is an invitation to a DEBATE! Not so!

However, if you think so, then consistently YOU WILL WIN!

To the contrary again, Wiggins. I'm just defending the gospel of Jesus Christ in my rebuttals, as soldiers for the Lord are suppose to do, in "refuting" things that are not in harmony with the word of truth. Throuhout the bible many servants of God proved, and disproved a claim in various way, that included the use of the scriptures. The apostles did it with the Jews often, and Jesus did it with the Pharisees. As I said, I just want a good report from God, and not "I win" from you. But if you care not to accept my desire from God.....well, that is your Prerogative to do so. Isn't it?

Rebuttal: refuting statement: a statement that refutes another opposing statement or criticism.
2. disproof of charge: proof that a charge is, true or false; disproving a claim by proof.

Can we get a Church of Christ Minister up there on the hill to join the circle of five who is now ministering to President Obama? I read all of the comments and about what we as christians should be doing but, why can't the church reach the president???

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If Christians are praying for governments, and the leaders of this world, and especially the leaders of their own country, that decisions will be made in accordance to God's will for us, and mankind....is that not better than having as you say "a church of Christ mininster up there on capital hill"? And, are we not to love our "neighbor" as ourselves? So then, our prayers to God is also in the behalf of our neighbors, and the world.

1Ti 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
v.2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
v.3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

Moreover, God will set in government whom he will, and when he chooses, and he did Joseph, Daniel, and Esther.

Wisdom comes from God. President Obama is "anointed" with "Wisdom" from God [to govern these United States] according to the Lord's plans and purposes along with the other [kings of the earth ] whose hearts has and is stirring to fulfill His word. (see Romans 13:1-7 cf. Proverbs 21:1)

If the ["foundation"] of President Obama's faith is the Lord Jesus Christ and not some other "strange god" then the [Spirit of Christ] that dwells in him is already [interceding for him.] (see Romans 8:26)

If those of the "circle of five" also have as their [foundation] Christ Jesus and Him crucified then the "church" does have the President's "ear" as does many other believers in Christ Jesus who are a part of His administration. I am sure they are praying for the President as well! (see Matthew 18:20)

And finally, one does NOT have to be a member of the Body of Christ for God to impart counsel to the President. For example, Moses' father-in-law Jethro give "wisdom from above" counsel to the MAN OF GOD and He was not an Israelite! As it is written,

"Listen now to MY VOICE, I will give you COUNSEL, and GOD WILL BE WITH YOU...So Moses HEEDED THE VOICE OF HIS father-in-law and DID ALL THAT HE HAD SAID..." (Exodus 18:19a,24)

Do you desire that the President of these United States be "filled" with "church of Christ" doctrines? God forbid!

RE: "Do you desire that the President of these United States be "filled" with "church of Christ" doctrines? God forbid!"
......................................................

Your statement above Wiggins, abolished all the other things you said as being truth. For if "you" forbid that a president of the U.S.A. be filled with the church of Christ doctrine, you also forbid the wisdom of God and Christ.

Know you not that in Christ dwells all the knowledge and wisdom of principalities, powers, and helps in governments? Christ knowledge is infinite as His Father. Many in Christ have only touched the "hem of the garnet" in the wisdom and knowledge of Christ for the church. Did not Paul say that he had not as yet apprehend all things? .

Phl 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
v.13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

Eph 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
v.17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
v.18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
v.19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
v.20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
v.21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.


Wiggins, you will forever always be unnecessarily "lacking" in the knowledge of God/Christ, because you always persecute His Son's church....by making statements like you made above.

Furthermore, Christ's knowledge and wisdom of Christ of all principalities, powers, and helps in governments consists of this world as well. Christ knowledge is infinite as His Father, and it is not lacking in any way. Afterall, did not God say that all governments/powers are subject to him, and powers that are ordained (according to his divine purpose) are ordained of him. And, did he not deliver all the powers that be, into the hand of His Son, Jesus Christ? Mat 28:18 "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth".

So then, why make a statement like you did Wiggins, about Christ's doctrine that is filled with his infinite wisdom and knowledge for the church in all matters of life, knowing that we live in this present world?

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

1Pe 2:13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
v.14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
v.15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:

By now you should know that when I use the phrase ["churches of Christ"] I am referring to the ["sect"] or ["denomination"] [masquerading] as the Body of Christ EXCLUSIVELY!

I was wondering though....about why President Obama left it to each independent state on how they choose to handle the Gay Rights "so-called marriage" issue.


Maybe it has a lot to do with how our nation and govenrnment works. The Federal, State, and Local government are independent. President Obama can pass a law that homosexuality is unlawful and should not be practice, but the State and Local government do not have to agree with it. It can be over-ruled by and State or Local government since they are independent and have their own "power-house" and Lobbyist working for them. If President Obama knows this to be true, then he probably wouldn't pass a bill to 'try' to abolish homosexuality. There is homosexuals in the Federal, State, and Local government so I don't think passing a bill to wipe-out homosexuality in all states would be successful.

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Homosexuality is legal and always will be. It is a waste of time to even talk about it. Why do you guys spend so much time talking about it as if it is going to do any good? You have lost that battle.

I find it interesting that you all seem to be obsessed with homosexuals, but you don't put the same amount of energy into passing laws that make divorce illegal. Why not?

Why don't you put the same amount of effort into passing laws against unwed people having children. Why not do the same to make drunkedness illegal.

You seem to love homosexuality. What's the deal? Are you all self-hating homosexuals?

Case in point:

http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSTRE52H5CK20090318

Homosexuality is legal and always will be. It is a waste of time to even talk about it. Why do you guys spend so much time talking about it as if it is going to do any good? You have lost that battle.

YOU SAID: I find it interesting that you all seem to be obsessed with homosexuals,

I SAY: It seems like you're just as interesting in homosexuals.

YOU SAID: but you don't put the same amount of energy into passing laws that make divorce illegal. Why not?

I SAY: What good reason should divorce be illegal.

YOU SAID: Why don't you put the same amount of effort into passing laws against unwed people having children.

I SAY: You're comparing Apples with Ice-cream. Unwed people having children are not fighting for the right to make children out of marriage 'lawful'. Maybe sex out of marriage is not unlawful in our constitution or state and local laws, but it is illegal as a common law. That is why so many people are embarass when it happens; that is why people get disowned when it happens, that is why people get ostracized when it happens, that is why people are ashamed of what they did they commit suicide. As a written law it is not 'lawful' or 'unlawful'; but society places it as a common law as wrong and something that we shouldn't do.

YOU SAID: Why not do the same to make drunkedness illegal.

I SAY: Drunkedness is illegal. It's illegal within our federal, state, and local law and it is illegal as a common law.

YOU SAID: You seem to love homosexuality. What's the deal? Are you all self-hating homosexuals?

I SAY: Stop trying to be funny because you failed miserably.

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ProJesus,

You say: What good reason should divorce be illegal.

I say: You are the ones who say that homosexuality should be illegal. My point was that you spend so much time talking about homosexuality but you don't spend the same amount of time and energy trying to make divorce illegal. Marriage is for life according to the Bible, and when people get a divorce, they are breaking God's law.

I was just wondering what your real motives are for being so much against homosexuality. If sin is sin, shouldn't you outlaw divorce just as much as homosexuality? Why the obsession with homosexuality? If your reasons were really based on the Bible, you would focus equally on both issues, but you don't. You like homosexuality better, it seems. What's up with that? This is how self-hating homosexuals act.

You say: You're comparing Apples with Ice-cream. Unwed people having children are not fighting for the right to make children out of marriage "lawful"

This is not comparing Apples to Ice Cream. Don't you teach that sin is sin? Don't you teach that all sins will "send you to hell?" Are you saying that if unwed people fought for the right to make children out of marriage lawful they would no longer be sinning? What kind of logic is that?

You are the one trying to get our elected officials to pass laws based on Church of Christ doctrine. If that is the case, you need to make all laws conform to Church of Christ doctrine. That would include unwed people having children. It would be based on doctrine and not on whether unwed people fight for the right to have children. Your logic is turned around.

YOU SAID: You are the ones who say that homosexuality should be illegal. My point was that you spend so much time talking about homosexuality but you don't spend the same amount of time and energy trying to make divorce illegal. Marriage is for life according to the Bible, and when people get a divorce, they are breaking God's law.

I SAY: God ordained marriage for one man to have one wife and it is meant for the two to be kept united. Why should we or anyone else fight for divorce to be illegal? What if that one man don't necessarily have one wife or what if that one wife don't necessarily have that one man? (This is just ONE example).There are good reasons that is not in conflict with God's plan to why divorce is not unlawful.

YOU SAID: I was just wondering what your real motives are for being so much against homosexuality. If sin is sin, shouldn't you outlaw divorce just as much as homosexuality?

I SAY: What is the real motive of homosexuals trying to make their sin LAWFUL and those in society even in the church that supports a LAWFUL sin? Secondly, divorce is not a sin, but of course it depends on circumstances.

YOU SAID: Why the obsession with homosexuality? If your reasons were really based on the Bible, you would focus equally on both issues, but you don't.

I SAY: What's up with your obsession with homosexuality and defending it? It seems when I or anyone else talk agaisnt it you are there to defend it. The sin of homosexuality is not equal with divorce. Homosexuality is a sin and homosexuals fight for their right to sin and they also preach that God made them that way. I don't find no other sinner doing such manipulation. Also, practically every sin is unlawful either through our constitution, federal, state, or local laws or through common law. Certainly no cannibal, rapist, murderer, liar, thief, con-artist, adulterer, fornicator, hooker, alcoholic, drug addict, numpho, or any other kind of sinner fights congress or our government to make their sin legal, neither do they preach God made them that way. People continue to fight agaisnt homosexuality because they continue to fight us, aggressively going as far to forcing people to accept it and even calling you 'evil' or the 'devil' if you don't.

YOU SAID: You like homosexuality better, it seems. What's up with that? This is how self-hating homosexuals act.

I SAY: Homosexuals are just the more aggressive sinners as it appears and we aren't afraid of them, that's all. I wish you stop it with this "self-hating" homosexuals stuff because it is not working. Reverse psychology don't work with true Christians.

I SAID: You're comparing Apples with Ice-cream. Unwed people having children are not fighting for the right to make children out of marriage "lawful"

YOU SAID: This is not comparing Apples to Ice Cream. Don't you teach that sin is sin? Don't you teach that all sins will "send you to hell?"

I SAY: You are comparing Apples to Ice-Cream. I already told you that children born out of wedlock is unlawful as our common law. Everyone knows it is unlawful. That is why people feel shamed when it happens; that is why people are disowned when it happens; that is why people are ostracized when it happens; that is why people are so ashamed and embarrass they commit suicide. People who fornicate and make '*******', 'illegitimate' children are not fighting the congress or our government to make their behavior lawful. They already know it is agaisnt common law and it is wrong.

YOU SAID: Are you saying that if unwed people fought for the right to make children out of marriage lawful they would no longer be sinning? What kind of logic is that?

I SAY: What kind of logic is in your question? You know I didn't say or imply any of the above. My point is that unwed people know they are wrong and it is agaisnt common law and that is probably the reason they DON'T force their behavior on people or try to manipulate society or our government into making '*******' and 'illegitimate' children lawful. Unlike the Homos, fornicators know their sin is wrong. They are reminded of it everyday.

YOU SAID: You are the one trying to get our elected officials to pass laws based on Church of Christ doctrine.

I SAY: I want our elected officials to pass laws agaisnt sin. Our nation already base their laws from the scriptures and their belief in God. Many of the elected officials are Catholics, Evangelicals and Jews. Most of the laws in the U.S. has been influenced by these faiths and the Holy Bible. Why singled out the Church of Christ. We are already living in a country that govern its law in Catholicism and other faiths but you don't have a problem with that.

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YOU SAID: If that is the case, you need to make all laws conform to Church of Christ doctrine. That would include unwed people having children. It would be based on doctrine and not on whether unwed people fight for the right to have children. Your logic is turned around.

I SAY: LOL! God's words can never be used agaisnt him or his soldiers. I already told you that unwed parents or 'unwed people having children' is agaisnt our common law. It is flat out wrong. The U.S. already bases it laws and principals on biblical teachings and other faiths. No one don't need to conform to the "Church of Christ doctrine" to know what is wrong and what is right. What use is it if our nation or the world "conform" to the Church of Christ doctrine and still don't obey the gospel? Christians are not interested in people "conforming" to the "Church of Christ doctrine". We are interested in people hearing the word, believing it, and making a conscious decision to obey it. This almost always happen outside of our Law & Government.

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You say: The sin of homosexuality is not equal with divorce.

I say: You are the first person I've ever known to openly admit that one sin is greater than another. Of course your statement is false and Church of Christ people never admit it, but you are the first.

If homosexuality is greater than divorce, does that mean that the homosexual will be in a hotter part of hell and the divorced person will be in a part that is less hot? (since you believe in hell)

Will their respective sufferings be different?

I SAY: The sin of homosexuality is not equal with divorce.

YOU SAID: You are the first person I've ever known to openly admit that one sin is greater than another. Of course your statement is false and Church of Christ people never admit it, but you are the first.

I SAY: LOL! I never admitted that one sin is greater than another. I will repeat...homosexuality is not equal with divorce OR THE SIN OF HOMOSEXUALITY IS NOT EQUAL WITH DIVORCE.

YOU SAID: If homosexuality is greater than divorce, does that mean that the homosexual will be in a hotter part of hell and the divorced person will be in a part that is less hot? (since you believe in hell)

I SAY: What do you mean that homosexuality is GREATER than divorce. Homosexuality is a sin and if Homos don't repent and obey the gospel then I believe they will not have eternal life. How do you know a divorcee will end up in hell? If he does, then he will end up in the same fire with the Homo.

YOU SAID: Will their respective sufferings be different?

I SAY: If Homos don't repent and obey the gospel then they will end up in burning fire. I'm not sure about a "divorcee" or a "divorcer" other than they too can end up in the burning lake if they don't obey the gospel.

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You say: LOL! I never admitted that one sin is greater than another. I will repeat...homosexuality is not equal with divorce OR THE SIN OF HOMOSEXUALITY IS NOT EQUAL WITH DIVORCE.

I say: You contradicted yourself. It is so plain to see. You've just said that one sin is not greater than the other, and in the next sentence you say that homosexuality is not equal to divorce.

If one sin is not greater than the other, how can the sin of homosexuality be different from the sin of divorce? Don't you preview your comments before posting them?

DePriest, check out the word "reprobate", and see why God has given specific homosexuals/gays who have waged a war against him, the type of minds they have.

God said that there is a clear distinct difference in sins, the same as there is a clear distinct difference in crimes. All crimes are against the laws of the land, and all sins are against the laws of God. Yet, a thief who steals a car, is not worse than a murderer who murders to steal a car. And, a prostitute who sell sex to make a living, is not worse than a mother who sells her 5 yr. old son for sex to buy drugs. Who are you kidding DePriest?

Likewise then, homosexuals and pediphilles who have unnatural sex, and say God sanctions there evil acts, are wicked. Which is worse, a sinner or a wicked sinner? Wickedness is a state of mind where sinners choose to believe that their, sins are not sins. In other words, the wicked have called God a liar as the homosexuals/gays have, and have waged a war against God. Now....you tell me who is worse? Check out why God has given these types a "reprobate" mind, and then you can understand why these types are the worse of sinners.

YOU SAID: You contradicted yourself. It is so plain to see. You've just said that one sin is not greater than the other, and in the next sentence you say that homosexuality is not equal to divorce.

I SAY: You are either acting stupid or that is the way you really are. There is no contradiction here. My post is for everyone to read. I will repeat...Homosexuality is not equal with Divorce. The sin of Homosexuality is not equal with divorce. I will repeat... I never admitted one sin is greater than the other!

YOU SAID:If one sin is not greater than the other, how can the sin of homosexuality be different from the sin of divorce? Don't you preview your comments before posting them?

I SAY: I already answered this and I will not play tags with you. I already told you divorce is not a sin unlike homosexuality that is a sin.

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Now I see where the problem is. You think that divorce is not a sin. I'll say nothing more.

YOU SAID: Now I see where the problem is. You think that divorce is not a sin. I'll say nothing more.

I SAY: The problem is...you didn't read anything that I said. You excuse me of saying something that I never said. I think it is time for you to keep quiet.

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Yep, on this subject I keep quiet.

DePriest sanctions all “scriptural” divorces for the cause of adultery, committed by "guilty spouses", as sin. For when he say, divorces are equal to the sin of homosexuality....he is teaching against the scriptures, and thus opposing God's truth.

Moreover, DePriest have listed all sin as being equal in how crimes are perpetrated upon the innocent: children, the elderly, and women. And, unnatural acts of crimes upon society. Apparently, DePriest believes that a woman prostitute who sells herself for sex in order to survive (as Rahab the harlot), are the same as a father who sells his 5 yr. old son/daughter for sex, in order to buy supply his drug habit.

Likewise, DePriest believes that homosexuals/gays who are teaching that God sanctions there wicked lifestyle, and who are also trying to force it upon others, are no more of a sinner than a sinner who is like the one in Luk 18:13. Christ has spoken, and has told us which of these are justified more in the sight of God, especially when comparing the man in Luke 18:14, to the homosexuals/gays described above, who often condemn thieves, pedophiles, and other sinners.

These homosexuals/gays proclaim that Christians who teach against their wicked lifestyle, are “bad Christians”, or sinners. While at the same time, homosexuals/gays proclaim they are “good Christians” who go to church and worship God in sincerity, as others Christians.
http://gaybiblechristians.org/library/goodpeoplechristians.html

Luk 18:11-12 “And the publican (sinner), standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner”

Luk 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
v.12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.