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Reffington

May 14, 2011 - 6:19AM

Re: I thought you might like these essays on Postmodernism

Quote: js

>>>>>I'm never sure why you think objective truth can be found and adhered to at the same time this prevails:
Quote:
If there is no objective Truth then Truth simply becomes whatever is decreed (and given support via engineered consensus) by the biggest mouths given the most publicity and approval by "opinion-makers".<<<<<

Objective Truth exists independent of opinion makers and engineered consensus. No one has to ADHERE to objective Truth at all. We simply need to stop trying to FORCE UNTRUTH on people, or OUR versions of TRUTH. I believe I understand and know some objective Truth. You disagree. I could be wrong and as a human of no more intrinsic value or less fallible than you I have no moral right to force MY Truth on you. I can PERSUADE but not force.

>>>>In viewing liberty as the highest good,<<<<

I have never called liberty "the highest good". Removal of tyranny of other humans is simply necessary for people to reach their full human potential and to not be forced to live their lives as resources for those with access to force.

>>>>you seem to repeatedly state that this is supposed to happen, not that everyone will be seeking objective truth.<<<<

That what is supposed to happen?

>>>>Quote:
It is simply the result of government school dumbing down combined with a Darwinist materialist worldview.

Pre-Darwin and government school, the world was not a pretty place, either.<<<<<

??? The world IS not and WILL not be perfect. The poor will always be with us. The rich man will steal the poor mans lamb. The little foxes spoil the grapes. Expecting "experts" and "leaders" to make the world "better", give them the monopoly on force necessary to mold such a utopia and the most evil and ruthless will become "experts" and "leaders". We see this borne out repeatedly.

>>>>I see your view of objective truth, absolute truth being knowable, and freedom in defiance of what you believe to be absolute truth as contradictory.<<<

As I posted above, I could be wrong (although I don't think I am). And for that reason I have no right to demand that my ideas be forced on you...and vice versa.

>>>>>So, even though, according to you, truth is objective and knowable, no one is under any obligation to adhere to what can be known?<<<<

Correct.

>>> "Life and let live" rules, despite objective truth?<<<<

It must, no human can force his ideas of Truth on anyone else. If that right is accepted (as statism is now) then the force is used by the most ruthless to aggress against others with THEIR "truth", which may be right or wrong.

>>>>> Further, those who are living and letting live, are under no obligation to reach others with their understanding of objective truth?<<<<

TEACH, yes. Force, no.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
What is supposed to happen? That everyone follow their own understanding of truth, their subjective understanding of truth, which you seem to equate with freedom.

OK, how about forcing public schools to close tomorrow to end dumbing down?

How about forcing the military-industrial complex to disband and study war no more?

How about forcing public libraries to close so that taxpayers would not have to fund them?

How about abolishing the IRS since you believe (know?) that taxation is theft?

How about ending welfare tomorrow and forcing the poor man to find his own lamb?

Suppose someone decides to drive over someone else with his car? Would you try to teach the person not to or force him not to?

What do you consider the highest good, if not liberty?

If people are not adhering to the objective truth you claim to know, what are they adhering to? Their own subjective understanding or outright falsity? Of course they have to adhere to what they know to be true.

I was not referring to experts and leaders, nor to perfecting the world. There is a difference between improving what is broken in the world and perfecting it. I think it vastly oversimplifies to believe that the problems the world faces today would not have come about were it not for government schooling and a materialist worldview.

Of course people manufacture propaganda as a stand-in for truth, to persuade and influence, just the way Bernays did. Facebook is now in the news over this, hiring a PR firm to trash Google.

What good does it do to KNOW OBJECTIVE TRUTH if one does not adhere to it? Does knowing imply action?

I am trying to make a concerted effort to understand what you are saying, but it still makes no sense to me. Apparently the only forcing you believe people should be allowed to indulge in is the forcing of people out of their own covenant communities.

Re: I thought you might like these essays on Postmodernism - by js - May 14, 2011 5:17pm

Re: I thought you might like these essays on Postmodernism - by js - May 14, 2011 5:19pm

Re: I thought you might like these essays on Postmodernism - by Reffington - May 14, 2011 5:23pm

Re: I thought you might like these essays on Postmodernism - by js - May 15, 2011 10:52am

Re: I thought you might like these essays on Postmodernism - by Reffington - May 15, 2011 11:47am

What IS your definition of theft? - by js - May 17, 2011 6:41am

Re: What IS your definition of theft? - by js - May 17, 2011 7:06am

Re: What IS your definition of theft? - by Reffington - May 17, 2011 9:56am

Re: What IS your definition of theft? - by js - May 18, 2011 7:23am

Re: I thought you might like these essays on Postmodernism - by Reffington - May 14, 2011 5:32pm

Re: I thought you might like these essays on Postmodernism - by js - May 15, 2011 10:41am

Re: I thought you might like these essays on Postmodernism - by Reffington - May 15, 2011 12:11pm

Re: I thought you might like these essays on Postmodernism - by js - May 17, 2011 7:10am