JS, "Hopefully, Charlie told everyone he wasn't interested in leading lines of children and carrying flags that symbolize political systems he really doesn't understand in the least, knowing only the feel-good propaganda spoon-fed in skool."

Wow, JS, you really hate us. The rest of us have formed a government we are reasonably happy with but you have spoken and therefore it is all evil and must be dispensed with.
Do you mind if I ignore you?
ron

>>>>Wow, JS, you really hate us. The rest of us have formed a government we are reasonably happy with<<<<

Wow, Ron, you really love to make it sound like you represent mobs of contented "citizens" who love their rulers. Got a mouse in your pocket that also appreciates domestic spying? You also love to smear others as "haters" because they don't accept that other humans are qualified to rule them. How dare they.

>>>>> but you have spoken and therefore it is all evil and must be dispensed with.<<<<<

Nope. It is merely my opinion, obviously, as your statements are yours. Whose makes the most sense?

>>>>>Do you mind if I ignore you?
ron<<<<

My heart is breaking.

JS, "Wow, Ron, you really love to make it sound like you represent mobs of contented "citizens" who love their rulers. Got a mouse in your pocket that also appreciates domestic spying? You also love to smear others as "haters" because they don't accept that other humans are qualified to rule them. How dare they.

"They don't accept that other humans are qualified to rule them."
JS, that was a beautiful spin job. You want to rule the rest of us by insisting that you alone wiil decide what kind of government the rest of will live under, no government, while our decision to rule ourselves doesn't count. You are a windbag full of abstractions that reduced to its simplest parts is only a power grab by yourself.

"Nope. It is merely my opinion, obviously, as your statements are yours. Whose makes the most sense?"
Sorry, JS, you are going far beyond merely expressing your opinion. You are attempting to undercut our decision to rule ourselves and to promote your opinion that we should bow down before you to let you decide our form of government.
Ron

It sounds to me like Ron wants to rule JS and JS doesn't want to rule anyone.

To cut to the chase, I'll give my own opinion up front. Religious freedom is the most important freedom. There are many of us who, based on our religion, view religion and education as inseparable (e.g. the Pope and Vatican archbishops have said as much).

In my county, Fairfax County, Virginia, the property tax is hefty (typically $350/month). 60% of the county revenue is from the property tax. 60% of the county expenses are for schools. Plus there are state and federal subsidies that bring the total contribution to schools per household to a grand total of $400/month.

Obviously, we can't pick and choose individual items from a budget we're opposed to and each household exercise "line-item vetos". But what we have here is a tax that is substantially from households, substantially supports schools, which infringe upon the most important freedom.

Second question. If public schools are so good, why do a quarter of those in the U.S. still think Saddam was behind 9-11? Could it be because public schools don't give their students the tools they need to unravel deceptive rhetoric from the President, such as in his 2003 State of the Union Address?

Before September the 11th, many in the world believed that Saddam Hussein could be contained.

Michael, "It sounds to me like Ron wants to rule JS and JS doesn't want to rule anyone."
It sounds to me like you have everything backwards. Ron's problem with JS is that she keeps trying to slander our form of government and all that are in favor of it.
Most of the governments in history have been tyrannies of one form or another.
The Spartans first formed a democracy based on a teenaged boys gang but denying rights to everyone else. Still they were reasonably democratic among members of the gang.
The Romans extended the ruling clique to encompass the male heads of households while denying anyone outside that group any rights. Later they became a tyrany.
The US initially granted a limited voting right but gradually extended it to all adults excepting a very limited group.
The American system is not perfect but in my mind is head and shoulder above all other systems that mankind has ever seen.
JS wants to throw out the US system in favor of a system that has never worked anywhere anytime.
Ron doesn't want to go through the trauma of experiencing JS' preferred system.
Ron

In the course of U.S. history, some freedoms have been gained while others have been lost. As you imply, freedom is not a zero-sum game. Idealists like me and presumably JS would like to retain the gained freedoms while regaining the lost freedoms.

I consider public education to be one of the pillars of what I call the fascist quintet.

Michael,
"In the course of U.S. history, some freedoms have been gained while others have been lost. As you imply, freedom is not a zero-sum game. Idealists like me and presumably JS would like to retain the gained freedoms while regaining the lost freedoms.
I consider public education to be one of the pillars of what I call the fascist quintet"
I am not sure I implied freedom was a zero sum game. It is for sure that I don't believe freedom is a zero sum game.
If we don't make the mistake that Gatto describes us as making with our school system we can not only keep the freedoms we have but in fact we can increase them.
Always remember this: we did not lose the school system we either deserted it or we had it slipped away from us by misdirection.
Still the old saying is that fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.
This time around we know the Morlocks are there and we know their methods. We know that an attemtive and active citizenry is the answer.
As to your use of the Fascists. I doubt there are as many as a dozen Fascists in our whole country if you go back and find out what the word means. Basically it is a communist (small cee) if you read up on the history of the facists contained in von Hayek's Road to Serfdom. I am not implying that you are communists but that you have picked up some language at probably fourth or fifth hand from listening unwittingly to propaganda from the Frankfurt School.
Ron

>>>>Michael, "It sounds to me like Ron wants to rule JS and JS doesn't want to rule anyone."
It sounds to me like you have everything backwards. Ron's problem with JS is that she keeps trying to slander our form of government and all that are in favor of it.<<<<<<

What have I posted about your government that is sladerous? How have I slandered you?

>>>>Most of the governments in history have been tyrannies of one form or another.
The Spartans first formed a democracy based on a teenaged boys gang but denying rights to everyone else. Still they were reasonably democratic among members of the gang.<<<<

Good for those in the gang. Bad for the rest.

>>>>>The Romans extended the ruling clique to encompass the male heads of households while denying anyone outside that group any rights. Later they became a tyrany.<<<<

Good for those in the gang, bad for the rest.

>>>>>The US initially granted a limited voting right but gradually extended it to all adults excepting a very limited group.
The American system is not perfect but in my mind<<<<

"IN YOUR MIND". So why should others have to live by and pay for a system YOU want but they may not? What makes YOUR opinion prevail above others, other than raw force?

>>>>>is head and shoulder above all other systems that mankind has ever seen.
JS wants to throw out the US system in favor of a system that has never worked anywhere anytime.<<<<<

The US Constitution, that you so revere was at one time new and untried. And now you insist that it is the only way.

>>>>Ron doesn't want to go through the trauma of experiencing JS' preferred system.<<<<<

Ron doesn't have to. Ron should be allowed to live under any system he wants. Ron just can't morally force his system on others who don't want it.

JS is awake on this one and you are out to lunch. ou have obviously spent too many years pledging aligence to a piece of cloth with no thought as to what is happening around you.

Bruce,
I admire your writing. You wrote, "JS is awake on this one and you are out to lunch. ou have obviously spent too many years pledging aligence to a piece of cloth with no thought as to what is happening around you."
In only two sentences you spoke volumes about yourself. You are so fixated into a false dichotomy that you don't even hear what I am actually saying.
Ron

>>>>>>"They don't accept that other humans are qualified to rule them."
JS, that was a beautiful spin job. You want to rule the rest of us by insisting that you alone wiil decide what kind of government the rest of will live under, no government, while our decision to rule ourselves doesn't count.<<<<<

1. How am I going to rule over you with "no government"?
2. How many times have I posted that you would be quite able to contract to live in a community ruled in whatever way you wish: dictator, "president", etc. If unable to find one you could found your own, collect taxes, etc.


>>>>You are a windbag full of abstractions that reduced to its simplest parts is only a power grab by yourself.<<<<

If there is no government, what power am I supposed to be grabbing? Calling something an abstraction is not an argument against it. Ideas are abstractions, so what?

>>>>>>"Nope. It is merely my opinion, obviously, as your statements are yours. Whose makes the most sense?"
Sorry, JS, you are going far beyond merely expressing your opinion. You are attempting to undercut our decision to rule ourselves<<<<

Quite the contrary. I want you to live whatever way you want, and I want the freedom to do the same. Because I do not believe in force except as self-defense (and not on an international or global level) I am no threat to you.

>>>> and to promote your opinion that we should bow down before you to let you decide our form of government.<<<<

Can you read? Where have I suggested anyone bow to me? Where have I posted I want to choose how anyone governs himself?
You are the one who insists that everyone "fix" the present out of control Leviathan by (LOL!) VOTING. I have no problem with your self delusion, but I no longer accept your right to force your desires on to me, or anyone else-and that's what voting is. Voting only works, perhaps, at the most local level. And even then individuals are routinely stripped of property and rights by a majority. Ever see the movie "Local Hero"?

Windbag, "1. How am I going to rule over you with "no government"?
2. How many times have I posted that you would be quite able to contract to live in a community ruled in whatever way you wish: dictator, "president", etc. If unable to find one you could found your own, collect taxes, etc."
BTW, I like your new alias. Can't you see the logical hole you have left? Presumably I like the government we have. That is the position you seem to be taking. So as soon as you convert this one to what you want you say I can go form or join whatever kind I like. It seems to me that you have pulled this one on the Indians at least once before.
I still think it is incumbent upon you to give us one example of an enduring and successful government of the type you seem to be advocating.
I say you can't do it. That in fact every anarchy in history has quickly degenerated into a tyranny.
Naturally, as this is the historical truth and you seem to be a reasonably educated person I assume that is the goal you are playing for.
To date I have brought this up repeatedly and you have always failed to respond with a viable example.
Ron

>>>>
BTW, I like your new alias.<<<<

Gee, I wonder why...let me think now...where did I hear it before....why I believe YOU gave it to me, Ron. Thank you for the "civil" discourse. Such a gentleman.

>>>>Can't you see the logical hole you have left? <<<

Uh, no. Please explain it again.

>>>>>Presumably I like the government we have. That is the position you seem to be taking. So as soon as you convert this one to what you want you say I can go form or join whatever kind I like.<<<<<<

Yes. Exactly. Since my desire is no government, what is stopping you from forming whatever you like? Certainly not me and no government.

>>>>It seems to me that you have pulled this one on the Indians at least once before.<<<<

LOL!!! Yes! I confess! George Washington and I, we stayed up late many nights scheming to displace Native Americans. Sadly, he died rich and I have become a very old poor windbag. (Actually, I have to point out that it was YOUR "sucessful and enduring" government that "pulled" this one on the Native Americans, not me.)

>>>>I still think it is incumbent upon you to give us one example of an enduring and successful government of the type you seem to be advocating.
I say you can't do it.<<<<<

So what? I think it is incumbent upon you to give me one example of a representative government with a Declaration of Independence and a Constitution with 3 branches (Executive, judicial and legislative) that existed before the US. I say you can't do it. What can that mean??? Ron, you are advocating keeping a government that has never been proven enduring and successful!! Remember, if it were successful you wouldn't be here gnashing your teeth over Morlocks. You are cracking me up, really.

>>>>>>That in fact every anarchy in history has quickly degenerated into a tyranny.<<<<<

Actually, all societies start without government, just people trading and forming associations. Then the parasites glom on and bully or trick people into supporting them. People just have to be smarter and more vigilant.

>>>>>Naturally, as this is the historical truth and you seem to be a reasonably educated person I assume that is the goal you are playing for.<<<<

No, Ron, all I mean is what I say.

>>>>To date I have brought this up repeatedly and you have always failed to respond with a viable example.<<<<

And I have just as repeatedly pointed out that the current government you worship so was untried before, and still has not proven successful and you ignore that, don't you? LOL!

JS, ">>>To date I have brought this up repeatedly and you have always failed to respond with a viable example.<<<< And I have just as repeatedly pointed out that the current government you worship so was untried before, and still has not proven successful and you ignore that, don't you? LOL!"

JS, that is pathetic. wouldn't you like to withdraw that remark before having the obvious pointed out to you.
As you point out in your example, our government was untried.
Actually we could point out that self government had been tried and as ours succeeded they did also.
The distinction is that yours has naturally evolved any number of times and has always been replaced by a tyrant
Just as your ideal always descends into a tyranny due to the Morlocks taking over our's runs that risk also.
Just as the Greeks, the Romans and any number of others have descended into tyranny ours could also.
That is where you and your hero Mr. What's his name come in. You know as well as I that evil men succeed only where good men do nothing.
That is enought to set your policy for you. We have a government where good men got together to form the government. For many years good men have held the government together.
It is impossible to say that we haven't been a success as you attempt to do. We took a small country composed of 13 independent states isolated in the backwoods of North America and build that inconsequential country into the major power on Earth.
However once before we listened to the "experts" as you urge us to listen to What's his name. What we got was a dysfunctional school system and all by following your ideas of listening to the great expert and deserting our educational system to be run by the Morlocks.
Now, you want us to desert our power as citizens to allow the Morlocks to have free rein in our government.
When the Morlocks send their henchmen to subjugate your tiny plot of acreage you visualise your husband (you?) strapping on your trusty .44 pistol and facing them all down like the super hero you are.
ron

>>>JS, ">>>To date I have brought this up repeatedly and you have always failed to respond with a viable example.<<<< And I have just as repeatedly pointed out that the current government you worship so was untried before, and still has not proven successful and you ignore that, don't you? LOL!"

JS, that is pathetic. wouldn't you like to withdraw that remark before having the obvious pointed out to you. <<<<<

No, Ron. I enjoy it too much when you "point out the obvious" to me.

>>>>>As you point out in your example, our government was untried.
Actually we could point out that self government had been tried and as ours succeeded they did also.<<<<<<

Who is "they"??

>>>>The distinction is that yours has naturally evolved any number of times and has always been replaced by a tyrant<<<<

Government.

>>>>Just as your ideal always descends into a tyranny due to the Morlocks taking over our's runs that risk also. <<<<

News flash: the Morlocks "took over" long ago.

>>>>Just as the Greeks, the Romans and any number of others have descended into tyranny ours could also.<<<<

It already has. You're just ticked that your particular gang isn't ruling.

>>>>That is where you and your hero Mr. What's his name come in. You know as well as I that evil men succeed only where good men do nothing.<<<<

Evil men succeed because good men won't do the things the evil men will do, except in self defense when forced. Participating in the farce of the evil men simply prolongs their power.

>>>>>>That is enought to set your policy for you. We have a government where good men got together to form the government.<<<<

Arguable.

>>>For many years good men have held the government together.<<<<

False. Politicians have held a monopoly on coercive force, ruling as they please due to the dumbing down and programming of the people.

>>>>>It is impossible to say that we haven't been a success as you attempt to do. We took a small country composed of 13 independent states isolated in the backwoods of North America and build that inconsequential country into the major power on Earth.<<<<

And that is your definition of "success". Being a "major power on earth" and massive centralization over the sovereign states and the target of terrorists for our international meddling. The people had more freedom in the 13 independent states than we do in your beloved empire.

>>>>>However once before we listened to the "experts" as you urge us to listen to What's his name.<<<<<

WHERE have I urged you to listen to anyone?(Of course you will not respond to this because you can't.)

>>>What we got was a dysfunctional school system <<<<

You are blaming lew Rockwell for the government schools? How is he to blame?

>>>>and all by following your ideas of listening to the great expert and deserting our educational system to be run by the Morlocks. <<<<<

It is already run by the Morlocks and has been since the early 20th century.

>>>>Now, you want us to desert our power as citizens to allow the Morlocks to have free rein in our government.<<<<

You go right ahead and "rein in" the Morlocks, Ron. Let me know how that works out for you. I'll stay as far from their evil clutches as I can. Hint: pay your government representatives lots of money and you'll get anything you want. Your Government at Work.

>>>>>When the Morlocks send their henchmen to subjugate your tiny plot of acreage you visualise your husband (you?) strapping on your trusty .44 pistol and facing them all down like the super hero you are.<<<<

Since they already subjugate us by extorting protection money or face losing our property, I would say that I'm not much of a superhero. But I never claimed to be one.

JS, "It already has. You're just ticked that your particular gang isn't ruling."

JS, I'm not ticked, my gang is ruling. But you know what? We can do lots better and I am determined to see us do better.
In the meantime all you can do is slander good men and women that work hard to have better government than we can presently achieve.
You prefer throwing the baby out with the bathwater and establish an abstraction that has never worked anywhere. You can't offer us even one anarchy that has stood the test of time. Yet you ignore your bloody history and continue to dupe the foolish into following you.
Ron

>>>>JS, I'm not ticked, my gang is ruling. But you know what? We can do lots better and I am determined to see us do better.<<<<<

If your gang is ruling shouldn't you work towards improving your gang instead of voting them out? The truth is, your gang got voted in and started doing things you don't agree with. But that's what they do, all the gangs. They say anything to get people to vote for them, then they get elected and do whatever they want. The voting and elections are meaningless and immoral.

>>>>>In the meantime all you can do is slander good men and women that work hard to have better government than we can presently achieve.<<<<

Who have I slandered? What was the slanderous remark? Better government just means they do what YOU like. And that can always work the other way.

>>>>>You prefer throwing the baby out with the bathwater and establish an abstraction that has never worked anywhere.<<<<<

What is "the baby" you want to save? The US system you adore was at one time untried and you think it worked. So how can you keep throwing this up as an argument? It doesn't make sense.

>>>>>You can't offer us even one anarchy that has stood the test of time. <<<<

And you can't show me one "democratic" or constitutional system that hasn't led to tyranny. Saying our system is a "success" belies the obvious.

>>>>Yet you ignore your bloody history and continue to dupe the foolish into following you.<<<<

Yeah, Ron. I have lines of followers beating on my door wanting to become market anarchists. Where are you getting these ideas? The "bloody history" is all a result of the state. The rise of huge centralized states has led to the bloodiest period in the history of mankind, Lincoln killed half a million of his own people invading the South that had every right to secede. And slavery wasn't made illegal in New Jersey until 1865, so did start any of that "freeing the slaves" baloney. I won't even start with Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, or Hitler in the 20th century. I'm sure their followers thought they were great leaders also. How much death will it take to convince you?

JS, quotes, "In the meantime all you can do is slander good men and women that work hard to have better government than we can presently achieve" and replies, "Who have I slandered? What was the slanderous remark? Better government just means they do what YOU like. And that can always work the other way."

You don't consider calling them Morlocks, and worse slanderous?
I especially liked this little beauty, "Better government just means they do what YOU like." That is as fine an example of maliciously slanted language as I've ever seen. JS, I also consider the many non-Morlocks who simply disagree with me and work for good government, by their standards , as being my gang also.
I think some people condemn anyone that works to have good government. I think anyone doing that is either a bigot or a revolutionary with an endgame in mind. Perhaps they have other motives.
ron
Ron

>>>>JS, quotes, "In the meantime all you can do is slander good men and women that work hard to have better government than we can presently achieve" and replies, "Who have I slandered? What was the slanderous remark? Better government just means they do what YOU like. And that can always work the other way."

>>>>>You don't consider calling them Morlocks, and worse slanderous?<<<<<

!!!!Morlocks was YOUR word for them, remember?

>>>>I especially liked this little beauty, "Better government just means they do what YOU like." That is as fine an example of maliciously slanted language as I've ever seen.<<<<<

You post over and over how "we" have to get in control and make government do what "we" want it to, do you not? Is that not exactly what I posted and what you mean?? Funny how the truth always seems "slanted" to you.

>>>JS, I also consider the many non-Morlocks who simply disagree with me and work for good government, by their standards , as being my gang also.<<<

Then you must define "good government".

>>>>>I think some people condemn anyone that works to have good government. <<<<

Some people recognize that "good government (as in "state") is a contradiction in terms.

>>>>>I think anyone doing that is either a bigot or a revolutionary with an endgame in mind. Perhaps they have other motives.<<<<

So anyone who disagrees with you is probably a dangerous subversive up to all kinds of no good, never mind domestic wiretapping, the Iraq lies, the unanswered 9/11 questions- I'M the danger. And you believe in good government. You are hopeless, Ron. Just keep kissing your shackles, they'll love you for it.

JS, "You post over and over how "we" have to get in control and make government do what "we" want it to, do you not? Is that not exactly what I posted and what you mean?? Funny how the truth always seems "slanted" to you."

It is slanted when you ignore obvious truths. Doing what "we" want means having it do less not more and not differently -- less. There is no reason in the world for our government to be so involved in our lives.
Newt Gingrich commented on the latest Lobbyist scandal. The truth is that for the lobbyist to spend that much money someone either elected or on the elected person's staff had to be taking the money. And, the government had to be involved in something that someone thought it was worth spending huge sums of money to influence.
Consider the McCain-Finegold (spelling?) bill. That has been a piece of Morlock enabling legistlation.
My position is that if more of us became active in this government we have a very good structure for denying the Morlocks power.
Your position is that we should retire to our acreage in the country and isolate ourselves until we were helpless in front of the Morlocks.
My point further is that you ignore the truth of what I have said and try to display me in a light that I have repeatedly told you is falascious. "Slanted" is the mildest thing I can call your words.
Ron

>>>JS, "You post over and over how "we" have to get in control and make government do what "we" want it to, do you not? Is that not exactly what I posted and what you mean?? Funny how the truth always seems "slanted" to you."
It is slanted when you ignore obvious truths. Doing what "we" want means having it do less not more and not differently -- less. There is no reason in the world for our government to be so involved in our lives.<<<<<

Your problem is you think "we" all have to want the same thing. I want no part of the government YOU think is so great. My opinion means as much to me as your does to you. So what makes yours right and worthy of being forced? Why must I be forced into living under a system of YOUR choosing and not my own? At least with no government you could choose and contract for your own system, which is already going on in gated communities and such with various covenants and rules. "Involved in our lives" is the understatement of the year (so far), they RUN our lives.

>>>>Newt Gingrich commented on the latest Lobbyist scandal. The truth is that for the lobbyist to spend that much money someone either elected or on the elected person's staff had to be taking the money. And, the government had to be involved in something that someone thought it was worth spending huge sums of money to influence.<<<<

So they bust this guy but let everyone else go who has been paying to play. My guess is he ticked someone off.

>>>>>Consider the McCain-Finegold (spelling?) bill. That has been a piece of Morlock enabling legistlation. <<<<

It's ALL Morlock enabling because the power is all on the side of the Morlocks, especially under a system of forced indoctrination into State-think. Don't like that the 10th amendment is dead and ignored? Try fixing it. I won't hold my breath.

>>>>>My position is that if more of us became active in this government we have a very good structure for denying the Morlocks power. <<<<<

I'm not saying you can't, I'm saying go for it. In my opinion, it's a waste of time and energy and I base that opinion on years of voting, attending meetings, and local level politics in my own district. I do believe your chances are better at the local level, but even then it all comes down to forcing your way onto someone else. Like the school district I moved out of a few years ago. They couldn't get a levy passed because there were so many retired people there. The population shifted over due to massive white flight and the levies were passed forcing lots of retirees out of their homes. It was all "legal" and a shift of "education" costs being forced onto people who couldn't afford it, forcing churning of property. The developers and realtors loved it.

>>>>>Your position is that we should retire to our acreage in the country and isolate ourselves until we were helpless in front of the Morlocks.<<<<<

I have never said that. I like the country but I understand not everyone wants to live there. That is personal choice. I do think it's risky living in a heavily populated area these days, not only risk of attack, but risk of disease. It is an artificial forced societal structure. You want restaurants, museums, mass transit, etc. you live in the city. Personally, most of the folks I know in heavily populated areas are mentally asleep, brainwashed, and running the rat race, jumping through the hoops and busily trying to "get more" than the next guy. I don't share their values. They are free to have their values, but I found I was not free to disagree.

>>>>>My point further is that you ignore the truth of what I have said and try to display me in a light that I have repeatedly told you is falascious. "Slanted" is the mildest thing I can call your words.<<<<

What have I posted that is untrue?

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more mportant than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.

Ron,

Please help me to understand one of the eight hundred million things I don't understand:

How can a person for whom Gatto's work resonates with truth also respect, or even love, the government which has been so instrumental in creating and perpetuating the monstrosity that is the public skool system?

For me, my son's brutalization by the public skool led to questions about the *real* purpose(s), which led eventually to Gatto, to Holt, Illich, Llewellyn, von Mises, Rothbard and others(and yes, Rockwell).

Among the common threads in the works of all these people is Leviathan --- the all-powerful state. JS is not alone in believing that the government of this land has travelled light years along the Leviathan path since its formation (by others, now long dead, not by *us*). This government is a growing deadly enemy to the freedom and liberty that were the hallmark of this land in its first half century of life. In the last centry and a half, the government formed to protect the liberty of citizens has become a monstrosity for which the name Leviathan fits quite well.

How can one who understands Gatto be "reasonably happy" with *that*?

JT, "How can a person for whom Gatto's work resonates with truth also respect, or even love, the government which has been so instrumental in creating and perpetuating the monstrosity that is the public skool system?"
Thank you for asking that question, JT. The truth is that you are confusing the baby with the bathwater.
In addition we cannot confuse the school system with the government we have. In fact the school system that Mr. Gatto, myself and many others complain about was brought about because the citizenry became passive and left the government first and the school system 2nd to be ran by the Morlocks.
That is exactly the position JS is attempting to talk us into today. If we desert our government and allow the Morlocks have sway we will end up with exactly the same situation we have in our schools today and for exactly the same reasons.
Our children have to have an education so we homeschool but it is not written anywhere that we can't vote in school elections and represent what we believe to be those measures or candidates that are for the benefit of the schools. We might even find our homeschooling being treated more fairly if the school board members knew they were going to have to face us at the election.
My brother is pretty much in agreement with us in our beliefs about the school system yet he is a member of the school board. If you think Mr. Gatto tells some horror stories you should talk to my brother. You wouldn't believe the financial shenanigans he uncovers and heads off. You also wouldn't believe some of the proposals to further dumb our kids down that he prevents.
I am not arguing that you should not homeschool but only observing that you have not relinguished the right to find out what is going on in our schools and if you will pardon my French raise hell about it.
You know the other home schoolers, you can put your heads together.
I believe the same logic applies to the government whether local, state or national. I know that sitting back and whinning while giving the Morlocks free rein is not the way to go.
ron

>>>JT, "How can a person for whom Gatto's work resonates with truth also respect, or even love, the government which has been so instrumental in creating and perpetuating the monstrosity that is the public skool system?"
Thank you for asking that question, JT. The truth is that you are confusing the baby with the bathwater.
In addition we cannot confuse the school system with the government we have.<<<<

To the contrary. Surely by now you realize that the govschool gulag is the sorting and indoctrination arm of the state. You LIKE that state, so you should be applauding the indoctrination system that creates the dumbed down docile wage slaves that make up the population.

>>>>In fact the school system that Mr. Gatto, myself and many others complain about was brought about because the citizenry became passive and left the government first and the school system 2nd to be ran by the Morlocks.<<<<

My understanding is that many objected to the system, resisted and were forced into it, and continue to be forced into it by government mandatory "schooling" laws. For their own good, of course. Resistors were jailed. The schooling came before the passivity, it created the passivity, creating passivity is its purpose.

>>>>>>>That is exactly the position JS is attempting to talk us into today. If we desert our government and allow the Morlocks have sway we will end up with exactly the same situation we have in our schools today and for exactly the same reasons.<<<<

If we desert your system the rulers will be unable to jail us all. The Morlocks are already in charge, Ron, and they aren't going quietly.

>>>>Our children have to have an education so we homeschool but it is not written anywhere that we can't vote in school elections<<<<

Now THAT makes it all worth it. LOL!

>>>and represent what we believe to be those measures or candidates that are for the benefit of the schools. We might even find our homeschooling being treated more fairly if the school board members knew they were going to have to face us at the election.<<<<

So your answer is to BECOME a Morlock, participate in the looting and indoctrination so that I am more likely to be able to force people to follow MY way. Power corrupts, Ron. I've seen well meaning school board members become exemplary Morlocks.

>>>>My brother is pretty much in agreement with us in our beliefs about the school system yet he is a member of the school board. If you think Mr. Gatto tells some horror stories you should talk to my brother. You wouldn't believe the financial shenanigans he uncovers and heads off. You also wouldn't believe some of the proposals to further dumb our kids down that he prevents.<<<<

That will only go so far. Remember Gattos example of the little district in Vermont that the school board tried to rein in? The state just overrruled them and jacked up taxes to penalize them. Meaningful reform will not happen.

>>>>>>I am not arguing that you should not homeschool but only observing that you have not relinguished the right to find out what is going on in our schools and if you will pardon my French raise hell about it.<<<<<

You go right ahead. Been there, done that.

>>>>You know the other home schoolers, you can put your heads together.
I believe the same logic applies to the government whether local, state or national. I know that sitting back and whinning while giving the Morlocks free rein is not the way to go.<<<<<

Your answer is simply to try to grab the ring of power yourself and force your values and beliefs, which someone will eventually wrest back from you. On and on...that's the way force works.

Windbag, "To the contrary. Surely by now you realize that the govschool gulag is the sorting and indoctrination arm of the state. You LIKE that state, so you should be applauding the indoctrination system that creates the dumbed down docile wage slaves that make up the population."

Windbag, you are putting words in my mouth. That isn't what I believe, like nor know. You are off base on all counts.
The school system was put in place by private individuals that were using the state to achieve their ends. At that time they had a tremendous advantage over us in that we had no idea of what they were doing. Today we know and are prepared to counter act them.
At that time had we known and understood what the Morlocks were up to the dumbest thing we could have done would have been to abandon the school system to the villains. Politically, we would have stayed in the system if only to block them.
Today, the state exists. It is a powerful tool in the hands of the Morlocks. The dumbest thing we can do is to give up the state to the Morlocks and leave it as a weapon to be used against us. If you had reason to believe I was a direct threat to your life would you surrender a weapon to me and turn your back on me? Of course not.
Ron

>>>> Windbag, you are putting words in my mouth. That isn't what I believe, like nor know. You are off base on all counts.
The school system was put in place by private individuals that were using the state to achieve their ends.<<<<

And they did what with the schools to achieve those ends? What were those ends?

>>>>> At that time they had a tremendous advantage over us in that we had no idea of what they were doing. Today we know and are prepared to counter act them.
At that time had we known and understood what the Morlocks were up to the dumbest thing we could have done would have been to abandon the school system to the villains. <<<<

So, you see the only thing wrong with the schools is that you don't control them?

>>>Politically, we would have stayed in the system if only to block them.
Today, the state exists. It is a powerful tool in the hands of the Morlocks.<<<<

The state existed then, too. It's what made the schools mandatory.

>>>>The dumbest thing we can do is to give up the state to the Morlocks and leave it as a weapon to be used against us.<<<<

No. The dumbest thing we can do is expend time and energy fighting a losing battle playing by their rules. Drop out and make them irrelevant. Ignore them, show them to be unnecessary.

>>>>>If you had reason to believe I was a direct threat to your life would you surrender a weapon to me and turn your back on me? Of course not.<<<<

Because I don't believe in force I would not hang on to the schools and indoctrinate according to my own wishes. I would free the children from the kidjails! And free the taxpayer as well!

JS, ">>>>The dumbest thing we can do is to give up the state to the Morlocks and leave it as a weapon to be used against us.<<<< No. The dumbest thing we can do is expend time and energy fighting a losing battle playing by their rules. Drop out and make them irrelevant. Ignore them, show them to be unnecessary."

JS, you are back to being the superhero. Any boy that ever got into a serious playground fight more than once or trained in boxing down at the YMCA, CYO, Golden Gloves, etc., knows that in a fight timing is everything.
You are advising your husband and all heads of households that the best way to defend those households is to turn their back on our government, which we run, to desert their police force, military and organization to live on that acreage of yours and to single handedly defend your home.
JS, you will no doubt contend that you will form your own organizations. What are your new organizations but governments under another name? What are the fees you agree to pay for this service or that but taxes under another name?
JS, it is obvious you have not thought your position all the way through and it is doubly certain you have not reckoned what you are truly doing.
But the greatest of all your mistakes is your mistake in timing. If the Morlocks understand anything it is how to take advantage of human nature and how to apply power.
While you, your husband, your friends and the rest of us if we are foolish enough to listen to you are getting organized the Morlocks agents & sympathizers will be in the midst of us slowing us down in getting organized; while we are deserting our government they will be taking over the legistlature, the courts, the executive and any agency that uses force; and long before you are ready to defend yourself they will be surpressing you.
On the other hand this is 2006, an election year. If you can't find anything else on the ballot you can find a Morlock to campaign against and you can vote against them. My experience is that in this system of incremental victories we can eventually run them all out to the point they cannot rule us.
Ron
Ron

>>>JS, ">>>>The dumbest thing we can do is to give up the state to the Morlocks and leave it as a weapon to be used against us.<<<< No. The dumbest thing we can do is expend time and energy fighting a losing battle playing by their rules. Drop out and make them irrelevant. Ignore them, show them to be unnecessary."

JS, you are back to being the superhero.<<<<<

Explain how the above statement makes me a "superhero".

>>>>Any boy that ever got into a serious playground fight more than once or trained in boxing down at the YMCA, CYO, Golden Gloves, etc., knows that in a fight timing is everything.
You are advising your husband and all heads of households that the best way to defend those households is to turn their back on our government, which we run,<<<<

But "we" don't "run" it.

>>>>> to desert their police force, military and organization to live on that acreage of yours and to single handedly defend your home.<<<<

Huh??? Where ARE you getting this? I advise keeping as far from the state and it's thugs as much as possible. If I am attacked it will be by those people, not foreign invaders. If foreign invaders come our neighbors and friends will band together to repel them. If a local bully picks on us we will deal with him ourselves rather than call police, simply because we have found the police are not very "responsive" to emergencies and we would be on our own anyway.

>>>>>JS, you will no doubt contend that you will form your own organizations. What are your new organizations but governments under another name?<<<<

Voluntary associations, contracted for if necessary.

>>> What are the fees you agree to pay for this service or that but taxes under another name? <<<<

Voluntary fees for services rendered, of course. Taxes are taken by force or threat of force.

>>>>>JS, it is obvious you have not thought your position all the way through and it is doubly certain you have not reckoned what you are truly doing.<<<<<

Why do you say that?

>>>>>>But the greatest of all your mistakes is your mistake in timing. If the Morlocks understand anything it is how to take advantage of human nature and how to apply power.
While you, your husband, your friends and the rest of us if we are foolish enough to listen to you<<<<<

No one has to "listen to me". We are all just trying to get along as freely as we can. I have just pointed out that the true nature of government is nothing but force and any idea "we" control it is pure illusion.

>>>>>are getting organized the Morlocks agents & sympathizers will be in the midst of us slowing us down in getting organized;<<<<<<<

I'm not sure what you mean by "getting organized". If you are talking about PAC's and the like, it won't work, unless you have enough money to pay them off.

>>>>> while we are deserting our government they will be taking over the legistlature, the courts, the executive and any agency that uses force;<<<<<

Done a long time ago. They ALL use force.

>>>>>and long before you are ready to defend yourself they will be surpressing you.<<<<

Already being done.

>>>>>On the other hand this is 2006, an election year. If you can't find anything else on the ballot you can find a Morlock to campaign against and you can vote against them.<<<<

If there is anyone on the ballot who isn't a Morlock he will become one when handed the power over other people. Voting is immoral. What right do I have to force my beliefs onto others?

>>>> My experience is that in this system of incremental victories we can eventually run them all out to the point they cannot rule us.<<<<

Let us know how that works out for you, Ron.

JS, Do you really want to get into a spitting contest with us quoting matters quoting the other person. You wrote, " >>>JS, ">>>>The dumbest thing we can do is to give up the state to the Morlocks and leave it as a weapon to be used against us.<<<< No. The dumbest thing we can do is expend time and energy fighting a losing battle playing by their rules. Drop out and make them irrelevant. Ignore them, show them to be unnecessary." I responded, JS, you are back to being the superhero.<<<<< Then you asked how that makes you a super hero, "Explain how the above statement makes me a "superhero".

I can't imagine how you could possibly misunderstand that reference. I have commented at length about the foolishness of giving up our present protections as a group under the law that we the people put in place so that we could follow your recommendation to drop out leaving ourselves isolated. You want us to stand totally alone while the Morlocks decide which of us they wish to confront next. They come as a gang, we stand as one person.
I suggest that your, or more properly Rockwell's, philosophy if put into practice is nothing less than an invitation for the tyrants to take over. My suspicion has always been and often stated that you understand the consequences of your advocacy. You are advocating a state of affairs that will soon be superceded by a tyranny.
Ron

What do you mean "JS, you really hate us." ALSO what do you mean "The rest of us have formed a government we are reasonably happy with" ? Who is US? Charly Laaa laa laa is a kids' book, about a wee boy carrying THEE FLAG finally... Won't get suckered~into buying THAT book.

I won't ignore your comments Ron, please explain because I do NOT hate JS and she does NOT HATE US.
Why Ron, do you continually target JS?

How's "your" book coming?
Thanks in advance.

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

JS, "Hopefully, Charlie told everyone he wasn't interested in leading lines of children and carrying flags that symbolize political systems he really doesn't understand in the least, knowing only the feel-good propaganda spoon-fed in skool."

Wow, JS, you really hate us. The rest of us have formed a government we are reasonably happy with but you have spoken and therefore it is all evil and must be dispensed with.
Do you mind if I ignore you?
ron

Bobby,
"Why Ron, do you continually target JS?" I don't target JS, she targets us and advocates a philosophy of government that has never worked anywhere anytime. The only outcome of any anarchy has always been to empower the Morlocks to take over. JS seems to want that, I don't.
Think about it. The way the Morlocks got charge of our schools was because we let the experts run our schools instead of doing it ourselves.
Bobby, we always have the responsibility of educating ourselves and our children regardless of whether or not we hire help to assist us. We also have the responsibility to engage ourself in our system of self governance. If we withdraw as I believe JS advises us then we can only expect the Morlocks to step into the shoes we deserted and take charge.
The book keeps inching along. I was listening to E. L. Doctorow for the first time on the Charley Rose Show -- I haven't read him either. (grin)
He said that during his days of being an editor, if he took an author to lunch and asked him how things were going, if the author said great, he (Doctorow) knew the guy was in deep trouble. If the author started complaining of all the problems he was having then that author was in good shape. By that measure I am doing fantastically.
ron

JS doesn't target Us, she's teaching us.... to use our minds and what's left of our gutt feelings ,common sense,] follow our hearts and instincts.

You needent lecture me Ron on the "responsibiltiy of educating ourselves and our children". Twelve years of homescholaring is evidence that we are responsible parents. You'd be proud of our kids, they aren't flippin burgers at Mc D..... or any other fast food joints. Kiddo worked at Lazen a seemily classy womens undi/jammy store , lasted two weeks, can't say I blame her, only a warped guy or gay woman would love measuring double deee breasts ;-)

As for governments, stay tuned on our election AGAIN, hopefully THIS time we'll knock the thieves off their thrown.

Have you ever wondered what drives a person to blow themself and others up? Why Ron?

Did you read about the teacher (principal) who was beheaded by terrorists , and they had his family watch? Horrific CRIMES.... !!!!

What'sa Morlock?

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

Bobby,
"Why Ron, do you continually target JS?" I don't target JS, she targets us and advocates a philosophy of government that has never worked anywhere anytime. The only outcome of any anarchy has always been to empower the Morlocks to take over. JS seems to want that, I don't.
Think about it. The way the Morlocks got charge of our schools was because we let the experts run our schools instead of doing it ourselves.
Bobby, we always have the responsibility of educating ourselves and our children regardless of whether or not we hire help to assist us. We also have the responsibility to engage ourself in our system of self governance. If we withdraw as I believe JS advises us then we can only expect the Morlocks to step into the shoes we deserted and take charge.
The book keeps inching along. I was listening to E. L. Doctorow for the first time on the Charley Rose Show -- I haven't read him either. (grin)
He said that during his days of being an editor, if he took an author to lunch and asked him how things were going, if the author said great, he (Doctorow) knew the guy was in deep trouble. If the author started complaining of all the problems he was having then that author was in good shape. By that measure I am doing fantastically.
ron

Bobby,
"What'sa Morlock?"
It is a figure of speech taken from H. G. Wells' The Time Machine that I find useful.
Basically a Morlock is a person that makes their living by feeding off of other people. In The Time Machine they literally eat the other people but in real life they seem to feed off of other's misery. Example, deliberately under educating children so they can never truly assume an adult role in society or in their own lives.
You and I have the same enemies, the Morlocks, but what we also have is a difference in tactics.
I see you as aware of the Morlocks on one level and fighting back against them. But so unaware of the Morlocks on another level that you are advising me to surrender to them.
We surrendered the schools to them by being unaware of what the Morlocks were up to. Now we are paying the price for that. Even if we homeschool our children we havent' repaired the damage done by the Morlocks because our children will have to live in a world dominated by the children the Morlocks dumbed down.
If as you contend the Morlocks are gaining control of the government then abandoning the government is just plain stupid. The Morlocks will easily lead the dumbed down segment of our citizenry into granting them the government's power to enslave us.
On the other hand you can think about finding yourself some acreage and retiring from the city to become fiercely independent as JS seems to recommend and frankly as I tend to favor.
So if you go that route, there you will be. You will have surrendered your voting power, you will be living as a member of that small minority known as the rural population while the environmentalists take your rights away by regulating your "wet-lands," your streams, your hunting and fishing rights, etc., etc. and etc.
I said our differences were tactical. Take any competition between men that you can name, checkers, chess, football, basketball, boxing, wrestling, etc. and the same basic tactic is used in all cases. Yes, that includes warfare. Figure out where the central turf is on the playing area, go there and take charge.
Right now the Morlocks with their finely honed sense for gaining power over their fellow man have decided that the first center of power was the school systems. Having gained control of that one they are taking over the government if you, JS and I are correct. I say go to the center of power and exercise your power. There are many of us that agree with you that are ready to help.
As to Mr. Gatto and my attitude toward him. He is a Saint in the sense of a saint being someone appointed to deliver a message we all needed to hear. But, no where in his message can you find him trying to train clones that he could control rather than educating adults that could think for themselves.
Ron

I became a citizen in 1984, worked hard and studied. Now our family has grown from two voters in the family to FIVE not including hubby
and myself. On January 23rd we are voting!!! If the liberal thieves win AGAIN, western Canada will seperate.

Pay attention to what's going~on up here....

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

Bobby,
"What'sa Morlock?"
It is a figure of speech taken from H. G. Wells' The Time Machine that I find useful.
Basically a Morlock is a person that makes their living by feeding off of other people. In The Time Machine they literally eat the other people but in real life they seem to feed off of other's misery. Example, deliberately under educating children so they can never truly assume an adult role in society or in their own lives.
You and I have the same enemies, the Morlocks, but what we also have is a difference in tactics.
I see you as aware of the Morlocks on one level and fighting back against them. But so unaware of the Morlocks on another level that you are advising me to surrender to them.
We surrendered the schools to them by being unaware of what the Morlocks were up to. Now we are paying the price for that. Even if we homeschool our children we havent' repaired the damage done by the Morlocks because our children will have to live in a world dominated by the children the Morlocks dumbed down.
If as you contend the Morlocks are gaining control of the government then abandoning the government is just plain stupid. The Morlocks will easily lead the dumbed down segment of our citizenry into granting them the government's power to enslave us.
On the other hand you can think about finding yourself some acreage and retiring from the city to become fiercely independent as JS seems to recommend and frankly as I tend to favor.
So if you go that route, there you will be. You will have surrendered your voting power, you will be living as a member of that small minority known as the rural population while the environmentalists take your rights away by regulating your "wet-lands," your streams, your hunting and fishing rights, etc., etc. and etc.
I said our differences were tactical. Take any competition between men that you can name, checkers, chess, football, basketball, boxing, wrestling, etc. and the same basic tactic is used in all cases. Yes, that includes warfare. Figure out where the central turf is on the playing area, go there and take charge.
Right now the Morlocks with their finely honed sense for gaining power over their fellow man have decided that the first center of power was the school systems. Having gained control of that one they are taking over the government if you, JS and I are correct. I say go to the center of power and exercise your power. There are many of us that agree with you that are ready to help.
As to Mr. Gatto and my attitude toward him. He is a Saint in the sense of a saint being someone appointed to deliver a message we all needed to hear. But, no where in his message can you find him trying to train clones that he could control rather than educating adults that could think for themselves.
Ron

Bobby,
"On January 23rd we are voting!!! If the liberal thieves win AGAIN, western Canada will seperate."
In American football there is a saying "inch by inch it's a cinch."
American Football and politics (anywhere) is a game of inches and increments.
It is very exhausting but don't give up the fight. Especially, if I am right and we have a non-dramatic but steady trend to libertarianism.
Besides some guy wrote a book a few years ago that claimed western Canada and that region of the US to the south of you were more truly one country than either of you were to the rest of Canada and the US.
If that is true you probably don't have much in common with the eastern part of Canada or the US.
BTW, what country were you and your hubby from before Canada?
Ron
Ron

Our country can't afford to "inch by inch" anymore and watch multi BILLIONS of OUR hard earned dollars extorted by money mongering munitulative tyrants (thieves). The schooled public are so brainwashed by government schools and daycare, and other tasty social programs, they can't see what's going on, and how their personal freedoms and private property are being deleted

The folks in western Canada and US (your country) have a LOT in common with eastern canada and the US of A. We have similar brain washing school systems preparing our children to conform, become good little taxpaying drones.

My hubby is was born and raised in Alberta, his grandpa passed away at 102 years old. Left Holand on a ship as a cabin boy when he was 12 and after some fantastic adventures, you'd only dream of, I did after reading his diaries , homesteaded in northern Alberta, fell in love with grandma and raised their family. Interesting that grandpa wrote his diaries in english

As for me, I thought you already knew where I was born? I was born in east berlin in a small cottage beside my grandparents' house. After my dad was taken into a prison because he had western magazines , ohhhhhh shoot Ron, I don't have the time or energy to tell this story again. Too depressing of what governments do to people.

Don't even have true conformation from the German govenment that the house I was born in belongs to our family again and I get an $8 thousand dollar (mark or euro) bill to pay for upgrading the sewer system, am I peeeeeed, for sure. They can't send official papers but they can send a BILL to pay for sewer upgrading? What a joke, discusting. Could care less what they do over there, sick of it. So there ya have it Mr. Harrison, all I want is for our kids to see through deception in governments, that's why our parents brought us to Canada.

By the way, we're very proud of 24yo son, he bit the bullet and quit his job of six years. Nope , not to flip burgers at McD's or manager at Wally World but to run his own inspection company I'm too tired to go into detail but it is fantastic. Not bad for a home ed grad, proud of him.

Bobby aka Oma

PS I like reading Rockwell sometimes, why not, we can form our own opinions can't we?

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

Bobby,
"On January 23rd we are voting!!! If the liberal thieves win AGAIN, western Canada will seperate."
In American football there is a saying "inch by inch it's a cinch."
American Football and politics (anywhere) is a game of inches and increments.
It is very exhausting but don't give up the fight. Especially, if I am right and we have a non-dramatic but steady trend to libertarianism.
Besides some guy wrote a book a few years ago that claimed western Canada and that region of the US to the south of you were more truly one country than either of you were to the rest of Canada and the US.
If that is true you probably don't have much in common with the eastern part of Canada or the US.
BTW, what country were you and your hubby from before Canada?
Ron
Ron

Bobby,
You said, "Our country can't afford to "inch by inch" anymore and watch multi BILLIONS of OUR hard earned dollars extorted by money mongering munitulative tyrants (thieves)."
So instead of winning inch by inch you are willing to follow JS and Rockwell down the path to losing the entire country in one fell swoop -- and that includes whatever it is that you think you own independently.
If you are from Germany then hopefully you will get around to reading Road to Serfdom by von Hayek if you haven't already. Believe me Rockwell's message is a road to Serfdom. My guess is that he hopes to become the tyrant himself.
Ask Mr. Rockwell and JS this: in the entire history of the world can you name one anarchy that is/was successful?
If you have been following this discussion as closely as you have indicated then you know I have challenged JS to name a successful anarchy many times.
I am still waiting for her answer. She hasn't got one and neither has anyone else.
But, I am not asking you to give up your lifestyle or your ideals. I ask you to register for the next election. Study the candidates and the issues. Then pick out the worse candidates/issues in light of your ideals and cast a vote against that person or issue.
You might try this. I assume you are against Canada's national health care system by whatever name it is known in Canada. Register for the next election, study the candidates to determine which is proposing the greatest expansion of the system and then vote against him or her.
Ron

As for your comment of my following JS & Rockwell, I don't follow anyone, including you.... If I/we were followers , we wouldn't have been brave enough to homescholar our kiddos. I will try and find time to read "Road to Serfdom" by Von Hayek, presently we're reading " The Secret Mulroney Tapes" Unguarded confessions of Prime Minister. by Peter C. Newman.

Our family is foccusing on the future, dwelling in the past isn't our goal, learning from past errors and forging forward is our goal.

Sorry I don't know much about Rockwell and his agenda but enjoy some of the articles on that board. They're a breath of fresh air at times.

Your successful anarchy questions have had me scratching my head. What is anarchy Ron? Your country defieted the Brits in one of the biggest "revolutions" in history, except Russia maybe. (success , yes?) Weigh that word anarchy, it means rebellion and revolution, as well as misgovernment, as well as mutiny.

The Canadian ship of dictatorship will be experiencing somewhat of a mutiny on Monday when the serfs go to the polls and hope to topple the dicatorships (sucking our bank account dry) we've had to live with for decades.

Ron, your don't have to resort to namecalling darlin, just cuz someone has different views. I have a great deal of respect for JS and family. Traveling 10 thousand miles through your country was an eye opener, you might try a tour like that sometime soon.

Bobby

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

Bobby,
You said, "Our country can't afford to "inch by inch" anymore and watch multi BILLIONS of OUR hard earned dollars extorted by money mongering munitulative tyrants (thieves)."
So instead of winning inch by inch you are willing to follow JS and Rockwell down the path to losing the entire country in one fell swoop -- and that includes whatever it is that you think you own independently.
If you are from Germany then hopefully you will get around to reading Road to Serfdom by von Hayek if you haven't already. Believe me Rockwell's message is a road to Serfdom. My guess is that he hopes to become the tyrant himself.
Ask Mr. Rockwell and JS this: in the entire history of the world can you name one anarchy that is/was successful?
If you have been following this discussion as closely as you have indicated then you know I have challenged JS to name a successful anarchy many times.
I am still waiting for her answer. She hasn't got one and neither has anyone else.
But, I am not asking you to give up your lifestyle or your ideals. I ask you to register for the next election. Study the candidates and the issues. Then pick out the worse candidates/issues in light of your ideals and cast a vote against that person or issue.
You might try this. I assume you are against Canada's national health care system by whatever name it is known in Canada. Register for the next election, study the candidates to determine which is proposing the greatest expansion of the system and then vote against him or her.
Ron

Bobby, "Our family is foccusing on the future, dwelling in the past isn't our goal, learning from past errors and forging forward is our goal."
If I put that together with your comment about not being a follower then it sounds to me as if you have a great plan.
However as I read your comments about what I've said I seem to be misunderstood. No doubt if I am misunderstood it is due to my not explaining my position clearly.
In the first place my comments are intended only in regard to my own country. I am a citizen here and have a vested interest in my country's future.
I have visited Canada, as well as most of the US, and enjoyed my travels very much. However I am not a citizen of Canada so if I made any comments about its governance my comments would be strictly gratuitous.
So what am I recommending for my own country. I contend that our first job as citizens is a responsibility to educate ourselves. As parents we have an obligation to educate our children at least to the point that they can assume that responsibility themselves. That is exactly why I am a devotee of Bauer and Wise. They teach a system of education that emphasizes the skills necessary to learn on ones own.
As citizens we also owe it to ourselves to know enough about what is going on in our society that we can perceive either threats or opportunities as they occur. We do not have the luxury of burying our heads in the sand.
We also owe it to ourselves to know enough about governance that we can identify and avoid at least the obvious and foreseeable pitfalls.
We also owe it to ourselves, as citizens, to join with others to take action as opportunities and threats materialize.
It is always possible for some few to bury their heads in the sand and not take part in the surrounding society but that is not possible for great percentages of the society IMHO.
I've said before that my family has often held elected office. Of course JS always begins ranting at this point. My study of my family history informs me that people that try to be full time politicians aren't nearly as successful as people that believe in limited government. The most successful people are fully rounded people that help with governance but who devote most of their effort to their private affairs.
If you read von Hayek you will find that much the same applies to governments. The more a government governs paradoxically the more they have to govern. They are trapped in an ever growing vicious cycle.
If we maintain our government as a democracy with limited powers then governance is not so onerous that we can't do quite well with part time office holders.
So, lets assume that you (plural and general not singular) don't wish to participate in governance. What do you owe to yourself as a citizen?
I recommend that at a minimum you study the candidates and issues being voted on at each election and then vote against the ones you discover to be Morlocks or issues that are not in your best interests. As a rule of thumb I vote against anyone that promises me something personally.
Me? I've never had any ambition to hold elective office nor any other kind of public office. However, I do enjoy the hurley burley of working in a political campaign. So, this year I will be licking stamps for the party of my choice and helping its candidates get its message out.
I have a friend in the other big party, we swap gossip and comments, so I know that other people will be helping that party just as I help the other.
That is where the voting citizen comes in. (Remember that on election day I am a voter not a political worker) I hope we all vote against the Morlocks. Further, I hope we all vote against those trying to extend our government into private areas.
That is my two cents. I will appreciate hearing your comments, questions or even slanderous remarks. (Very Big Grin)
Ron

Well, the West was a cleansweep of Conservatives , as expected. They gain 10 seats in Quebec which is good, they haven't had representation in that province in I can't remember how many years. Anyhoo they didn't exactly topple the Morlocks. Won with a minority government but at least they're in. Steven Harper is one of the first in decades who wasn't a silver spooned lawyer. He's an economist and we feel he's honest and will cut taxes, do away with the horribly usesless billions of dollar$ gun registry which was supposedly enacted to lower crime rates. They've increased. I won't drag~on about that skew up. We'll be putting pressure on changing the age of consent from 14 years old to at least 16 or 18. Parents couldn't believe the Liberal gov approved such an autrosity (sp) . There we go again, maybe there are a lot of old perverts in that party who like youngsters. Steven will do ok, unfortunately it's a minority gov., so they'll have to deal with more Morlocks which will slow down progress. Arrrrghhh, Quite a few high roller liberals lost their ridings and they get a golden pension for life of over $100 thou a year paid for by the you know who's. Ron, I'm toast talking politicals/elitists for now.
Our guy is the new leader On the plus side George Bush phoned him this morning with congrats. Maybe our countries can work together again. The Libs gave us a very anti-American Rap. Wouldn't it be nice if we didn't have to purchase expensive passports visit friends and family in either of our countries. I doubt that'll happen with all the terrorism fear.

Bobby who's semi happy with the results, we'll see.

Well, the West was a cleansweep of Conservatives , as expected. They gain 10 seats in Quebec which is good, they haven't had representation in that province in I can't remember how many years. Anyhoo they didn't exactly topple the Morlocks. Won with a minority government but at least they're in. Steven Harper is one of the first in decades who wasn't a silver spooned lawyer. He's an economist and we feel he's honest and will cut taxes, do away with the horribly usesless billions of dollar$ gun registry which was supposedly enacted to lower crime rates. They've increased. I won't drag~on about that skew up. We'll be putting pressure on changing the age of consent from 14 years old to at least 16 or 18. Parents couldn't believe the Liberal gov approved such an autrosity (sp) . There we go again, maybe there are a lot of old perverts in that party who like youngsters. Steven will do ok, unfortunately it's a minority gov., so they'll have to deal with more Morlocks which will slow down progress. Arrrrghhh, Quite a few high roller liberals lost their ridings and they get a golden pension for life of over $100 thou a year paid for by the you know who's. Ron, I'm toast talking politicals/elitists for now.
Our guy is the new leader On the plus side George Bush phoned him this morning with congrats. Maybe our countries can work together again. The Libs gave us a very anti-American Rap. Wouldn't it be nice if we didn't have to purchase expensive passports visit friends and family in either of our countries. I doubt that'll happen with all the terrorism fear.

Bobby who's semi happy with the results, we'll see.

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Replying to:

Bobby, "Our family is foccusing on the future, dwelling in the past isn't our goal, learning from past errors and forging forward is our goal."
If I put that together with your comment about not being a follower then it sounds to me as if you have a great plan.
However as I read your comments about what I've said I seem to be misunderstood. No doubt if I am misunderstood it is due to my not explaining my position clearly.
In the first place my comments are intended only in regard to my own country. I am a citizen here and have a vested interest in my country's future.
I have visited Canada, as well as most of the US, and enjoyed my travels very much. However I am not a citizen of Canada so if I made any comments about its governance my comments would be strictly gratuitous.
So what am I recommending for my own country. I contend that our first job as citizens is a responsibility to educate ourselves. As parents we have an obligation to educate our children at least to the point that they can assume that responsibility themselves. That is exactly why I am a devotee of Bauer and Wise. They teach a system of education that emphasizes the skills necessary to learn on ones own.
As citizens we also owe it to ourselves to know enough about what is going on in our society that we can perceive either threats or opportunities as they occur. We do not have the luxury of burying our heads in the sand.
We also owe it to ourselves to know enough about governance that we can identify and avoid at least the obvious and foreseeable pitfalls.
We also owe it to ourselves, as citizens, to join with others to take action as opportunities and threats materialize.
It is always possible for some few to bury their heads in the sand and not take part in the surrounding society but that is not possible for great percentages of the society IMHO.
I've said before that my family has often held elected office. Of course JS always begins ranting at this point. My study of my family history informs me that people that try to be full time politicians aren't nearly as successful as people that believe in limited government. The most successful people are fully rounded people that help with governance but who devote most of their effort to their private affairs.
If you read von Hayek you will find that much the same applies to governments. The more a government governs paradoxically the more they have to govern. They are trapped in an ever growing vicious cycle.
If we maintain our government as a democracy with limited powers then governance is not so onerous that we can't do quite well with part time office holders.
So, lets assume that you (plural and general not singular) don't wish to participate in governance. What do you owe to yourself as a citizen?
I recommend that at a minimum you study the candidates and issues being voted on at each election and then vote against the ones you discover to be Morlocks or issues that are not in your best interests. As a rule of thumb I vote against anyone that promises me something personally.
Me? I've never had any ambition to hold elective office nor any other kind of public office. However, I do enjoy the hurley burley of working in a political campaign. So, this year I will be licking stamps for the party of my choice and helping its candidates get its message out.
I have a friend in the other big party, we swap gossip and comments, so I know that other people will be helping that party just as I help the other.
That is where the voting citizen comes in. (Remember that on election day I am a voter not a political worker) I hope we all vote against the Morlocks. Further, I hope we all vote against those trying to extend our government into private areas.
That is my two cents. I will appreciate hearing your comments, questions or even slanderous remarks. (Very Big Grin)
Ron

We are your neighbor! I grew up across the puddle from Detroit. Now I live in western Canada.

On MONDAY , Canadian Serfs are going to the polls. (AGain) I would appreciate some positive vibes for Steven Harper, he's a good person, honest and will follow through what he promises. Please send some positive waves to Steven, he needs all the help he can to get rid of our thieving Paul Martin government. I've been watchin our primeminister (leader) on his campain tours and he is one scary man. Last night I nearly fell off the couch, told hubby Martan reminded me of Hitler the way he talks (yells)...(sigh))

Sorry Ron for the vent, but it's very important that Canada overturns our present dictatorship.... We are neighbors!!! Please send positive waves to Stevan Harper on Monday...

I need ZZZZ's ,we've lived under a corrupt thieving dictatorship for 12 years, think positive vibes for us please......

Bobby, "We are your neighbor! I grew up across the puddle from Detroit. Now I live in western Canada."

I used to consult at the Ford Engine Plant in Windsor, Ontario, Canada.
We would stay at the Holiday Inn down on the waterfront. Either at the hotel or downtown at on of the sidewalk cafes, maybe both, we could look across the water at Detroit. My constant comment was that once you got outside the US it didn't look too bad.
That brings me to your problems if you are trying to convince Canada to become more capitalistic or libertarian.
As an American coming as I do from the outside the differences in the two societies were very noticable. Canada was much more socialistic right down to its core.
If you are to accomplish your goal then you are going to go through many incremental victories before the final result is achieved.
In many ways we are far ahead of you. BTW, in my saying that we were ahead of you keep in mind that 35 years ago one of our major papers predicted that East St. Louis, Illinois was 20 years ahead of any other American city -- on the down hill side. I believe that is the side of socialism that we lead you. Our people seem to have seen enough of the downside of socialism to have begun to learn their lesson.
Anyway, to repeat myself, I am not a citizen of Canada, I can't vote there and I don't have to live with the results so please forgive me if I have intruded on your affairs.
Ron

Please remember, keep voting against the Morlocks and against their schemes. Even if you lose while against them you reduce their margin of victory and in turn reduce their mandate to rule -- politicians place great store in their "mandate."