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The Odysseus Group's Education Debate & Discussion Forum

This forum has been created for you, so feel free to use it often to share your ideas, insights, and experiences from which we all can learn. Please note that we will remove postings if they: a) are not germane to the subject of education, b) are advertisements or sales pitches, c) contain profanity, obscenity, or comments that are insulting to readers.

The Odysseus Group's Education Debate & Discussion Forum
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Re: Re: A Question and Something I noticed this week

You've got it right about the order of things being mixed up. If you read much homeschooling and particularly unschooling family stories in published books and magazines you will see this theme over and over again--the kids develop interests in doing various things and then do whatever focused book/academic type learning is needed to support them in their self-selected goals. These goals aren't always necessarily vocationally oriented, particularly when the kids are very young, but it still works the same way.

It is certainly much more time efficient this way! Then you don't waste time on things you don't really need and can devote time to what you do need. This is why so many homeschooled/unschooled kids show so much genius.

Skeptics like to say, but what if they don't realize something they will need to know later? Won't they have gaps in their knowledge? I say, hogwash. For one thing everyone, schooled or not, has gaps in their knowledge and frequently hasn't learned something they need to know. So learn it when you find out you need to know it--it's never too late. The only thing I know of that truly has a "critical period" in which you must develop knowledge at the right time is first language learning--if you are profoundly deaf or severely neglected within the first 18 months of life and/or do not hear language directed to you, the brain organizes itself much differently in ways that will make much literacy and some types of intellectual development extremely limited. On the other hand, many of these individuals have special gifts in visual/artistic skills because of this brain reorganization. (Note that Helen Keller was deafened at around 18 mos of age, which is why she did not have many of these limitations and was able to "recover" so well).

Essays assigned in schools are purportedly to show that you have command of a certain type of written discourse structure. I thought it was funny reading the paper today about online language that teens have all picked up with no classroom instruction. They have developed their own very effective ways of communicating both online and in conversation that is sometimes obscure to adults who have not been familiarized with the lingo and expressions.

Language, like everything else, is picked up best when you need it for a specific communicative purpose. So if you needed to communicate some ideas for a real purpose that needs the essay format and structure, the types of paragraphs and logical organization of ideas found in an essay would make sense to write. But as an exercise for class? Pointless. Again, putting the cart before the horse.

The paragraphs and sentence structures used in an essay can be learned best when there is a real purpose for the writing--e.g. a real letter to the editor or a paper or magazine. I think so many kids do hunger for something real to do--this is why some who are turned off by school turn to what looks like antisocial activity, as in this quote from a disaffected teen, someone known to a friend of mine:

"yeah. i know where you are coming from. but drugs and sex are the least of a teen's problems. STRESS is the major cause of anything bad in a teen's life. why do they do drugs, have sex, drink, ect.? because of stress! most adults dont realize this and blame it on our "hippity hop" or rock n roll. like at the columbine shootings, parents had the nerve to say that it was maryln manson's fault! how ignorent can you get! it was the stress of everyday life! with parents and teachers saying stuff like "get good grades or you will be a hobo with no life and has to **** in a box." really, i think you learn more about life when you are with friends getting into trouble, than in school. im not trying to bash on adults, but most of them simply cant blame themselves."



Leslie in KY

Re: Re: Re: A Question and Something I noticed this week

These are good points, all true. But from what I've read about those Columbine shooters, their actions were the result of the "socialization" of school, the forced association and assertions of dominance and political behavior. They were marginalized from the herd, obviously intelligent but without direction (other than watching "The Matrix" too many times and missing the point) or adequate supervision. They were not fitting into the school roles open to them. They targeted jocks, A students, people who teased them. They did not accept the marginalizing and herding and lashed out against the herd.

Re: Re: Re: Re: A Question and Something I noticed this week

I'm not sure you caught the point of the quote, which was not to explain the Columbine shootings. This teen was expressing why *he* was turning to some antisocial activity himself, due to a couple of factors: his search for something that felt "real" combined with pressure from parents and school to perform in school (where he has always struggled). He would like to leave school but his parents do not understand, as they equate schooling with "success" in life. I think that his own perspective on Columbine is affected by his own struggles to deal with stress at the moment.

At the same time, there probably is some partial truth to what he says about Columbine, and I don't disagree with him that stress in teen lives is not a major problem. Another mom who just took her anxiety ridden 16 yo out of school locally said there have been 3 suicides at her daughter's small rural high school this year. Oh, and the school tried to tell her she could not homeschool because she was a working parent.
Leslie in KY

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A Question and Something I noticed this week

So what is the cause of this generic "stress"?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A Question and Something I noticed this week

I don't think it's appropriate to give any simplistic answer to "what is the cause of this generic stress?"

I do see a combination of complex issues at work here. For many kids, school is a big source of stress. Kids are told success in school is the only route to having a happy life and they can't see past the lie. Being put with same-age peers in large numbers creates a lot of social issues that cause stress. Loss of close family bonds is a source of stress. Being raised to be materialistic and looking to constant entertainment for "happiness" is a cause of stress. Having meaningless, purposeless lives by being confined to meaningless busy work in school, as Gatto talks about, is a big source of stress. My 21 yo tells me lots of her age peers also think the society we have created is headed for catastrophe, we just can't sustain this monster we have created. That is a source of stress.

I work with a number of square peg kids after school in private language therapy and several are on anxiety meds, OCD meds, etc. One boy who has a lot of language challenges obsessively computes his grade point average with a calculator in his free time at home. He said he's working on stopping doing this.

Lots more ideas here, but lots of kids are under a lot of stress from what I can see. Not that life was meant to be stress-free, but when you start getting suicides and dysfunction in large numbers it should set off some red flags.
Leslie in KY

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A Question and Something I noticed this week

I just found the word "stress" to be simplistic, that's all. Sorry.


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