Should we listen to psychologists like mihaly what's his last name or follow our instincts/common sense.
Ron I'd really respect you if you actually answered rather than quote some longnamed thesist. What are your thoughts?

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Replying to:

"I am an old man. But I am not dead yet. I figure I've spent my last 55 years trying to fix a flat tire, with a water hose. But that is what happens, when you are lied too, most of your life."

Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi is said to be the best psychologist in America by many. He says that our society operates on unfulfilled promises.
Ron

Hey Dude!

Careful 'agent Smith' does'nt find what you've been secretly coding on their computer... deleting content sometimes helps.

Love,

Sid.

I've been ranting to my friends for years that we are products of a system designed to make us into automatons, great consumers. I sat back and looked at the educational system as a whole and realized that I didn't learn anything at my very exclusive college. I was deemed one of the "elite." I went to school on a 4 year academic scholarship to a well-recognized university and everything was paid for. But I was only told how to be a good citizen. I wasn't taught how to think. I wasn't taught our nation's Christian heritage, nor was I taught the abuses of the church towards the Indians and blacks. I wasn't taught how money really works. I was taught how wonderful compound interest was, but not why we set ourselves up on a system based on exponential growth that has to go through "recessions" to keep the money supply down."

"There are many who find a good alibi far more attractive than an achievement. For an achievement does not settle anything permanently. We still have to prove our worth anew each day: we have to prove that we are as good today as we were yesterday. But when we have a valid alibi for not achieving anything we are fixed, so to speak, for life. Moreover, when we have an alibi for not writing a book, painting a picture and so on, we have an alibi for not writing the greatest book and not painting the greatest picture. Small wonder that the effort expended and the punishment endured in obtaining a good alibi often exceed the effort and grief requisite for the attainment of a most marked achievement."

and alibi? Did you mean *an* alibi? Deary me, I don't know if I can really take your ideas seriously, Mugato, if you can't even tell the difference between the indefinite article and a conjunction. This is a serious obstacle to my listening to anything you have to say. :)

hoisted on his own petard!

Good comments all. It's not that I'm looking for an alibi, just that I was so grateful to realize that I'm not crazy for thinking something was wrong. It does give me comfort to know there are others who are waking from their collective slumber and recognizing the truth that we have found.

It's not an alibi I'm seeking, but camaraderie. Finding others of like mind lets me know that my ideas don't exist in a vacuum. Believe me, there are no alibi's here. But thank you for challenging me to DO something with my newfound revelations. If all we ever do is sigh with a comfortable acquiesence at our finding an answer, then the world is not a better place. We are called to give back, not just take what we have learned and spend it on ourselves.

This is what I have learned:
My children (not yet conceived) will never set foot in public nor private schools.
I will endeavor to teach others what I know and encourage them to truly learn to think for themselves.
As a former college teacher, I will re-visit these ideas with any future students. I will strive to teach them self-sufficiency, not enslavement to our current corporate economic system.

I read a great book called "How to Read a Book" by Mortimer Adler and Charles Van Doren. It was instructive in that it listed many great books of the Western (Greek Athenian) tradition. I went through their list of great works and wondered how I managed to graduate college (16 years of school!!!) having only read a handful of them. I've since started reading them and marking them off as I go. I'd like to put together a classical learning curriculum for my future children. I'd like to find someone who has read Gatto's work and thought about the next step. If no one has, that is a task I wouldn't mind taking up: How do we begin to fix what has happened to us? How do we "awaken" the masses to the lie that has been promulgated by our now essentially corrupt socialist and undemocratic government? How to we induce a love of learning again to those who are already out of school? And once on that path, how do we reconcile that with the current state of our economy? In other words, how do we continue to be profitable and self-sufficient in an economy that demands an obedient and pliable working class?

I'd love to hear someone's thoughts.

I wish I had time to answer you more extensively right now--maybe after Christmas--but right now, go here:

http://www.thomasaquinas.edu

It's based upon the "great books" program conceived by Adler and others. My husband and I are graduates--I decided to go there as a frustrated public-schooled teen, tired of the rat race (at which I had been very "successful" and wanting to know more about *truth*. It's a wonderful place.

We have three little girls--eldest five, and homeschooling. If you want to understand children and learning and serve your children as well as you can, read everything you can get your hands on by Montessori, John Holt, and Suzuki. A good beginning is most important--if you understand *before* they are conceived, all the better.

Just some leads--I'd love to discuss more later.

Rebecca in CA

Recognizing the devastating effect government indoctrination has had on generations of people is not an alibi. By that reasoning anyone objecting to oppression is merely making an alibi for their inability to prosper within an existing framework of oppression; objecting to oppression is not an option. We are slaves and our job is to figure out how to prosper as a slave by the existing means. If we don't, or object to being forced to use the only means left to us then there is supposedly something wrong with us, not the system. Paul Revere and the other revolutionaries were just whiners and complainers, so was Martin Luther King, Gandhi, and Jesus.
There are undoubtedly those who do quite well within the current system and they think those who don't are just whining. They believe what Ron posted below, that some people are "natural slaves" deserving of "natural masters", simply because they won't participate in the rat race assertion of dominance. The current system rewards political behavior, the ability to "lead" others as the ruling elite want others "led", the ability to entertain and distract is also well rewarded. People who have no desire to run anyone else, who just wish to be left alone are considered dangerous, non-team players, loners, independent thinkers. Nowadays all thought is to be groupthink, consensuses shaped into pre-determined paths to lead to desired behaviors, always safe for the ruling elites and enslaving the average guy.
Before things get better people have to recognize what schooling IS, that it has nothing to do with education, that it is not a good thing and is the worst thing for a growing child. Once the schools are abandoned change will come more quickly as there will be less indoctrination into state-think. I don't think you can "wake up" people who aren't ready and are so confused they don't even know what education IS, they think it's what is dished out in public schools. A lot of them are part of the current system and quite happy with their rewards. Most of them are so indoctrinated and ignorant of basic economics they respond to whatever propaganda CNN or the NYT puts out like a programmed robot, even when common sense tells that it doesn't make sense. The current economy is highly controlled and regulated, rewarding those who the rulers wish to reward, controlling access to livlihood through increasingly meaningless credentialling. This economy is increasingly unable to deliver quality goods and services. And the system designed to keep people dumbed down and optionless is backfiring in the creation of dependent, unmotivated, ignorant workforce in a world where intelligence, motivation, creativity, and independence are increasingly needed in the job market. The job market itself is shifting, leaving millions trained for "jobs" working for others that quickly become obsolete or shipped overseas, instead of letting people find their own meaningful work, or become an entrepreneur.
I also really liked "How to Read a Book". I also like a series Adler and Charles Van Doren wrote called "The Great Ideas Program". Adler was a big fan of John Dewey, one of the masterminds of our current schooling system, and I don't agree that a classical ed. is for everyone, but for those interested he has some good resources. I still can't believe that the Bible is not in the Britannica "Great Books" collection.

I love your post JS! My girlfriend/fiance just quietly listens to my "rants" but doesn't always understand because she hasn't read what I just read. It's great to hear others rant just as much as I have been doing. Excellent analysis about opposition and alibis. I'm going to do everything I can to "educate" those around me. I'm approaching "middle-age" but I still feel young enough to make a difference. If I can be indoctrinated well enough to do well in our current system and be considered one of the elite then I can use that in this effort. I don't believe it's a lost cause and I thank God for the homeschoolers who have paved the way for me to educate my future children as I see fit. Thanks to everyone for these posts!

Finally! Someone who appreciates my rants! Just hang around, you'll soom be tired of them!

Hi folks,

I am always wary of books. What is written is never what is read. A great book for some, is trash for others. Pirsig (him again!) talks about the Chicago great books program in his Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, and the 'fall out' that he had to deal with in his investigation into Quality. The way I see it, (and I find resonance with what Gatto says in his works) is that one needs to keep focused on the relevancy of what one reads to ones present state of knowledge about the world. For me the ultimate aim of 'self guided learning' (a term I have recently come across with my involvement with an interesting alternative local college) is to develop wisdom. Pure knowledge, which IMHO is the contents of most books is not knowing, which is to me wisdom. How often has one come away from a manual on some thing, and still been none the ‘wiser’ on how to assemble or operate the thing! A ‘Great’ book taken out of context and without relevancy to the need or the interested enthusiasm of the reader becomes in my own experience the most boring drivel imaginable.

But hey, I’ve only ever read a few books myself, and I am a very slow reader, in the respect that I like to savor and digest the material which takes more time than the situation often allows, and that’s when I find something palatable to read in the first place: something that is not just someone else’s propaganda.

So like I said, I am wary. As the Buddhist monks say in the Theravadin tradition ( a tradition with more than its fair share of ‘books’!) “You won’t find truth in a book!”

Love

Sid

PS: Think these posts are great!

I must disagree. There is a great deal of truth in a lot of books. What would be the point in making millions of kids not want to read if there wasn't? As people have posted before, a persons life experience and level of education usually influences what is learned. I agree that there is a lot of garbage out there in the book world. Reading the "best seller" lists is depressing, as is Oprah's "discovering" of various literary classics in her middle age. But, better to have discovered late than not at all, and if her recommendation gets them read by more people, even better. The Great Books list has often been criticized and my "Great Book" may not be yours. But I do admire Adler and Van Doren for emphasizing the Great Conversation, for trying to make a deracinated population understand that where they are is a result of ideas of the past. I'm not a super fast reader, either. I took "Speed Reading" once and dropped out. What is the point of reading if you're skipping words and rushing by sentences the author sweated over?

JS
I was just discussing this point about speedreading with my husband. It seems to me that my having learned to read things very quickly and skim them for important information (test material) has actually made me nearly incapable of retaining what I read. Now, if I *want* to read something slowly and carefully, it takes a great deal of effort *not* to read too quickly. Someone was praising a method which teaches five-year-olds to speedread, but I am weary of such methods. St. Augustine and St. Thomas were not speedreaders, yet they *retained* what they read in wonderful quantity--entire Scripture memorized, etc. I think a lot of speedreading probably detracts from that kind of ability.

Rebecca

Interesting. I find skimming textbooks to be pretty easy. They are boringly written, usually an obvious outline format that the "main idea" can be plucked out quickly. But for real reading, speed reading is the pits. I can't imagine speed reading Dickens or Wendell Berry, for instance. What would be the point? You wouldn't really have read it. I can read much more quickly than I used to be able to, and more difficult material, but that's just from practice. I don't retain much in the way of exact words/phrases, though, and when I do I almost never remember where I read it or who said it. That's what is so great about the Internet.

Hi JS,

I agree with your disagreement. There is indeed a lot of truth in books, but for me in my own experience, Truth is something we create for ourselves. Now that can come out of the reading of a book - following where it leads the person reading it, or it can come from the simplest of experiences or the greatest of traumas.

As I have posted on other threads, in my own opinion the schooling focus on reading is purely utilitarian: reading road signs, instructions and explanations, and the quicker the better!! (Hence perhaps speed reading!) I also think that those who are awake have the best opportunity to 'tweak the controls of the machine'. Being on the outside, they can perhaps best judge which direction the thing is headed. How that is actually done will probably be as varied and interesting as the varied and interesting variety of awakened ones.

I find this guys site quite inspirational sometimes: http://www.cainer.com/. He’s quoted some stuff by Jesus, like 'Judge not, that ye be not judged.' And 'Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: And yet I say unto you, that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.' Very synchronos in my mind.

Thanks again for that post, I found it a good read.

Happy Christ-Buddha-Dao-Mohammad-Solstice-mas…

Love,

Sid

>>>>I agree with your disagreement. There is indeed a lot of truth in books, but for me in my own experience, Truth is something we create for ourselves.<<<<<

I cannot create truth. I can discover it in the sense that I found something that was lost to me, but I cannot create it. It exists independent of me.

>>>>Now that can come out of the reading of a book - following where it leads the person reading it, or it can come from the simplest of experiences or the greatest of traumas.<<<<

I would say that this sounds like you are discovering truths, not creating them.

>>>>>As I have posted on other threads, in my own opinion the schooling focus on reading is purely utilitarian: reading road signs, instructions and explanations, and the quicker the better!! (Hence perhaps speed reading!)<<<<<

I agree. Speedreading discourages the in depth kind of thinking one must do for understanding the reading of ideas. It is best suited for function, for a cog. But perhaps there are those who have photographic memories and the like who can read very quickly and understand what they have read AND enjoy any artistry within it. Most of us are not so blessed.


>>>>I also think that those who are awake have the best opportunity to 'tweak the controls of the machine'. Being on the outside, they can perhaps best judge which direction the thing is headed. How that is actually done will probably be as varied and interesting as the varied and interesting variety of awakened ones. <<<<

I agree. And the more people who abandon the government schools, the more likely this is to happen.

>>>>>I find this guys site quite inspirational sometimes: http://www.cainer.com/. He’s quoted some stuff by Jesus, like 'Judge not, that ye be not judged.' And 'Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: And yet I say unto you, that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.' Very synchronos in my mind.<<<<

The Cainer site appears to be a new agey-pagan type of one. I'm glad if he sees the wisdom of Christ, though. Perhaps it will encourage him to further explore the Christian theology.

>>>>Thanks again for that post, I found it a good read.<<<

You're welcome.

>>>>Happy Christ-Buddha-Dao-Mohammad-Solstice-mas…<<<<

Happy Christmas is all I need, thanks

Hi everyone,

Just to clarify my own thinking on this, which goes something as follows. For me, discovery is as js points out, something that one finds: one finds or becomes aware of some fact or thing. However, truth is much more subtle, in that it is ones accordance with the discovered and known facts and more importantly the awareness of those facts which is subject to change. When one goes to sleep, ones surroundings disappear as an objective fact, and in accordance with that we allow ourselves to dream. Further, in my own mind, I make a distinction between this relative, religious truth (religion in the sense of the Latin religio-onis meaning obligation, bond and reverence) and that of Ultimate Truth, Truth with a capital ‘T’ which I think is something that comes out of the very centre of our own Beingness, and in that sense, I think is Created in a very real way. It has to do with Self knowledge, with the inner sense of who we really are, not some idea of emotional attachment to a virtual view, but a powerful knowing who/what one is. When coming from this perspective, Truth has meaning that is beyond words, beyond the façade of the mind. It is for want of an arrow to point with, to give it a name, Spiritual. And it is being recreated, re-incarnated moment by moment. That’s the Truth as I create it now, subject to revision and change; after all, all is change, change is all.

Thanks for letting me share that,

Love,

Sid

I liked your post JS. But when it got to the point you made and you said Jesus (God with us) was a whinner and complainer.. Please do explain..

Mugato refers to those who complain about the system as using the thing they are complaining about, in this instance government schooling, as an alibi for their "deficiencies". Using this reasoning anyone who objects to an oppression is making an alibi for their failure to succeed within the existing system. There is no oppression, there are only weaklings who can't "cut the mustard" in the existing system, the system is never at fault. I used Jesus as an example because he objected to oppression and injustice. He did not say "conform yourself to the system, whatever it is, whatever the cost, or you deserve to be weeded out and enslaved".

understood.