>>>>>JS, "I strongly disagree with the notion of Mighty Warriors employed by the State to go around the world making war on people in our name telling us it's for our "freedoms"."
JS I can't imagine you could possibly disagree with that characterization -- after all you made it up out of the whole cloth.<<<<<

Why would I disagree with my own assertion? What whole cloth ARE you talking about?

>>>>>Or was it only intended to be a straw man that you could set up and then demolish with one stroke of your poison pen?<<<<<

Again, What ARE you talking about?

>>>>>>The truth is that the men I was calling the Warrior are here in about the numbers estimated and they are the ones that step up to protect you, in your home & in your neighborhood.<<<<<<<<

Is that why they always show up 30-60 minutes after the volunteer FD paramedics around here? I'm so comforted. Glad you explained it to me. Last time they came to apprehend a fugitive (who happened to wreck in our yard) they arrived complaining mightily about how close it was to quitting time (10:30 PM) drove off down the road where the volunteers had seen the guy hitching, came back 15" later saying he ran off through the weeds and they "couldn't catch him". Funny thing was, all of us had wet feet from the grass in our yard. The cops had dry shiny shoes and tidy dry knife edged creases in their pantlegs after having supposedly given chase through the tall grass in hot pursuit. It was hilarious. I sleep so much easier knowing these "Warriors" of yours protect me.

>>>>Furthermore they do not seek your permission for breathing rights.<<<<<

They can breathe all they want, what does that have to do with invading and occupying countries all over the globe and calling it "protecting" "our freedoms". Are you saying this is the same thing as "breathing"?

>>>>>It is easy to recognise them. On 911 they are the ones that ran toward the towers while Rockwell penned another column wishing someone would give him an anarchy.<<<<<

What does Rockwell have to do with this? Apparently, he is YOUR "strawman", isn't he? Please post the column where he "wishes someone would give him anarchy". You won't because he didn't.
As far as the 9/11 tragedy, there has never been an investigation into how that "rescue" was handled. Many people died needlessly after being told by those firemen and their bosses to stay put in the towers. I know of a person who was in the second tower, was told to stay there with everyone else. She and a friend got on an elevator when the firemans back was turned, came down and walked out of that building. Everyone else who stayed up there died. I wouldn't have had the guts to have done that, I thought those guys knew what they were doing. Obviously not. Very tragic. But we can't question our "heroes" and "warriors" can we?

I shouldn't even comment because I haven't totally follow this thread, but HEY why not. I don't think you HATE MEN, That's a double Huhhhhh for me ?

Listening to so called know~alls in life threating situation like you friend did could have cost them their lives.

My brother in law is 70 something years old, retired fire chief who is discusted with how they teach newbie firefighters. The guys who teach them are losers who couldn't cut the physicals or even the common sense part of being a firefighter so they somehow become the teacher. It is unbelieveable the stories he has told.

If planes came crashing around us, "common sense" should tell ya to get the bleep out of the buildings.

Speeking of "common sense" and fire alarms, it's not a 9/ll tragedy by any means but it shows how people think or NOT. I dropped kiddo at work last week, we were early so we had a Booster juice in the same building complex and talked, the fire alarm went off, there were dozens of people on exercise equipment who did not move, I guess false alarms happen ofter there. Fire department pulled in at the bowling alley in the same building complex next door to where she works. Kiddo was upset because their store was not warned and they have HUNDREDS of animals that would have died had it been a REAL disaster, and no warning. Hey, there where also people working there, LIKE our kid who'd die to save every pup, kitten, birds, roddents, fish, even snakes and crickets. Forwarning in this small instance would have been appreciated, 9/11 is still questionable if you know what I mean. Ummmmmm? I don't want to rehash that act of inhumanity unless the whole truth is published. Watergate opened floodwaters, maybe there is hope to know the truth someday of why so many planes full of inocents people were hijacked that morning. Sheeeesh, my little boy couldn't get his watersquirtgun through airport security in Toronto 15 years ago. Talk about being treated like criminals, OiY, I was exhausted traveling with 3 kiddos, the toy made it through Edmonton security why not Toronto, had to wander what seemed MILES to find where we could check in his toy so we could catch the next plane to Windsor. Talk about picking on honest people or WHAT. Here we have a momma with 3 kids, nope our munchkins aren't in training to hurt or kill people , yet the authorities let killers onto airplanes , take control and we all know what happened. That was the last year we stepped on an plane until mom was dieing, we had to be there fast. Air Canada let us down , Northwest airlines, was great and managed to get us there in less than 24 hours.

I'm glad your friends survived rather than stay put and die, takes a lot of guts for them to do that . There was a time when we trusted others to educate our children, thankfully we chose the elevator.

Oooops sorry, all I meant to say is, you don't hate men, just dispize the warmungeringmorons and bully thieving money hungry government workers who have forgotten who they work for, TAXPAYERS, who are seriously tired of overtaxation and not getting WARRANTY for THEIRskew~ups. Doubtfull than any insurance company on the planet would insure governments ;-)

Have a good Christmas :-)

our focuss is family year round, Christmas is a very special time for us. This year is even more memorable when big boy asked if he could cut a Christmas tree out of our bush. That's a sweet story but not for this thread ;-) Off topic ya know

Give your family a hug from me.

Love

Bobby aka Oma who refuses to edit, hehehe

http://www.infoshop.org/inews/article.php?story=20051209112354415

Welcome to Infoshop News
Friday, December 09 2005 @ 04:19 PM PST

Thinking about anarchism: Anarchism and human nature
Friday, December 09 2005 @ 11:23 AM PST
Contributed by: Admin
Views: 73
It's the last line of defence against anarchism. You're in the pub, you've convinced them, they can see the possibilities, they want to know more - they're interested and then the voice pops up: "shure that
would never work because of.... human nature...bud" But, in fairness, it is a very sincerely held belief by many people, that we are "naturally" greedy, rotten feckers and, in the absence of government, some mad
form of capitalism would be inevitable.

Thinking about anarchism: Anarchism and human nature

Ireland, Anarchist Workers Solidarity #89

"Then, in the souls of the oppressed, powerless men every other man is taken
for hostile, inconsiderate, exploitative, cruel, sly whether he be noble or base."
- Friedrich Nietzsche - Human, All Too Human, 1878.

It's the last line of defence against anarchism. You're in the pub,
you've convinced them, they can see the possibilities, they want to
know more - they're interested and then the voice pops up: "shure that
would never work because of.... human nature...bud" But, in fairness,
it is a very sincerely held belief by many people, that we are "naturally"
greedy, rotten feckers and, in the absence of government, some mad
form of capitalism would be inevitable.

The English philosopher Hobbes was first to systemise this
pessimistic view of human nature. He coined the term " war of all
against all" to characterise a return to nature where people just
survived through hand to hand fighting, digging lumps out of each
other, even eating each other if necessary. Handily this horror could be
avoided if a sovereign was agreed to. This would be the last assertion
of power by the "people" as, after that, only the sovereign could rule.
Needless to say, his book "Leviathan" was a big hit with European
monarchs and rulers in the Seventeenth Century.

Rousseau expressed the exact opposite view about hundred years
later. He saw Mankind as "naturally good" and wanted to strip off the
layers of "civilisation" that were preventing us from being our most
"natural" and good selves.

Most anarchists, myself included, would see human nature as neither
good nor bad. The very terms are "socially constructed". People are
shaped by their biological make up and by their environment. You
can't change your biological inheritance (much!) but the influence of
your parents, education, friends, the media and so on vary widely from
person to person. In general the prevailing morality of a society, indeed
the very concepts of "good" and "bad" are set out by the ruling forces
in that society.

For example historically meekness and mildness are seen as "good"
where as selfishness and maliciousness are "bad".

Certain traits are encouraged because they keep us in line but cheeky
or rebellious ones are frowned on.

In this present western phase of late capitalist over-production two
things are required. 1. That we stay at home in front of "the box" and
cause no trouble. 2. That we pitch in and consume!

Advertising plays on our most basic human need for security and the
slightly more advanced need for contentment. It sells us a very shallow
in-duh-viduality based entirely on what we consume and how we look.
We become shallow, snobby, alienated and hostile towards everyone
around us as per the Nietzsche quote above. We want to do others
down. Basically the system encourages everything that is crap in us!

But we know people can be better than this. Just look at voluntary
organisations like the GAA, the lifeboat service etc. Local community
groups draw on the time and effort of thousands of people, which they
give quite gladly. Further, many of these grassroots organisations,
though they may appear quite harmless and run of the mill are run in a
very democratic fashion.

Some even practice direct democracy and so (though they might be
shocked to hear it) are functionally anarchist. They bring people
together, empower them and move them beyond in-duh-vidual
consumerism. They present for the system the danger of a good
example. We too know the power of a good example. When people
hear libertarian ideas and, where they see them working in practise
then their "better" side begins to emerge. Capitalism or any society of
leaders and led inevitably brings out our worst - that's what it's
designed to do. Anarchism brings out our best - that's what it's
designed to do!

There is no fixed, inalienable human nature - people can change, and
society can change - for the better.

-------------------------------------
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'Workers Solidarity'. http://struggle.ws/wsm/paper.html

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This is a muddled up thinker. He is an apparent atheist who is trying to justify his opinions using Christian morality while denying it exists.

>>>>>>Thinking about anarchism: Anarchism and human nature

Ireland, Anarchist Workers Solidarity #89<<<<<<

If there is no capitalism, who do "the workers" work for? Is it required to be a "worker"? If so, how is this anarchism?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>"Then, in the souls of the oppressed, powerless men every other man is taken
for hostile, inconsiderate, exploitative, cruel, sly whether he be noble or base."
- Friedrich Nietzsche - Human, All Too Human, 1878.

It's the last line of defence against anarchism. You're in the pub,
you've convinced them, they can see the possibilities, they want to
know more - they're interested and then the voice pops up: "shure that
would never work because of.... human nature...bud" But, in fairness,
it is a very sincerely held belief by many people, that we are "naturally"
greedy, rotten feckers and, in the absence of government, some mad
form of capitalism would be inevitable.<<<<<<<<

The flaw here is believing that somehow government will be miraculouly free of these "greedy, rotten, feckers" (all gov't employees are altruistic saints protecting us, don't they tell us that in grade school?). The reality is that the raw power attracts the "greedy, rotten, feckers" like a magnet. The "protector" becomes the worst oppressor. He is also simply assuming capitalism is an evil.


>>>>>>Most anarchists, myself included, would see human nature as neither
good nor bad. The very terms are "socially constructed". People are
shaped by their biological make up and by their environment.<<<<

He takes the "nurture" side in nature vs nurture.

>>>>You
can't change your biological inheritance (much!) but the influence of
your parents, education, friends, the media and so on vary widely from
person to person. In general the prevailing morality of a society, indeed
the very concepts of "good" and "bad" are set out by the ruling forces
in that society.<<<<<

Good and evil DO exist. The concepts of "good and bad" the regular people are supposed to have ARE defined by the morality/worldview/religion of the ruling class. This author's worldview is that there is no real "good" or "evil", that they are artificial constructs forced on us, or so he says here.

>>>>>>>>>>We become shallow, snobby, alienated and hostile towards everyone
around us as per the Nietzsche quote above. We want to do others
down. Basically the system encourages everything that is crap in us!<<<<<

But wait!! What's this??!! These statements reflect ideas that indicate the author DOES believe some behaviors are "good" and some are "crap". Hhhmmm...what can this mean? I must read on to gain understanding.

>>>>>>>>But we know people can be better than this. Just look at voluntary
organisations like the GAA, the lifeboat service etc. Local community
groups draw on the time and effort of thousands of people, which they
give quite gladly. Further, many of these grassroots organisations,
though they may appear quite harmless and run of the mill are run in a
very democratic fashion.<<<<<

I see...Hhhhmmmmmm.... I see. "Shallow" (a judgement call if I ever heard one), "snobby" (an undesirable personality trait or simply a desire for solitude?), "alienated", and hostile" = "bad"...."Groups", "Community", "grassroots", "democracy", "thousands of people" = "good". And people "can be better" (or worse)?

So our leftist anarchist who says morality is an artificial construct DOES have some definite ideas on what is good and what is bad (morality). Individualism, independence, personal choice and discernment, and crankiness (perhaps with collectivising groupthinkers??) is "bad"; herds, collectives, groups, grassroots groups, and democracy are "good". Now this is interesting. Could his moral choices have anything to do with the fact that people are easier to manage in groups and herds (as we have seen with our discussions on the Alinsky methods and the Delphi technique)? Groups and gangs are more willing to do things they would not normally do on an individual basis. A person whose primary identity is as part of a herd essentially loses part of his humanity to become part of that herd. But to our author, I'm sure humans are just another species of animal to be managed.

>>>>>>Some even practice direct democracy and so (though they might be
shocked to hear it) are functionally anarchist.<<<<<<

Huh??? Democracy is majority rule. That implies some type of oppression of the minority, which is not anarchism.

>>>>>>They bring people
together, empower them and move them beyond in-duh-vidual
consumerism. They present for the system the danger of a good
example. We too know the power of a good example. When people
hear libertarian ideas and, where they see them working in practise
then their "better" side begins to emerge.<<<<<

"Consumerism" is "bad", "being brought together" is "good" (but why we must be herded, he doesn't say). And, astonishingly, here the author claims people have a "BETTER SIDE"!!! How can that be in his world where good and bad are artificial constructs? Does that not admit an "evil side" to man, ALL men, as well? Who decides what is a "better side"?


>>>>Capitalism or any society of
leaders and led inevitably brings out our worst - that's what it's
designed to do.<<<<<

I agree with the "leaders and led" part. But demonizing capitalism, without explaining how people are to trade and obtain goods and services doesn't make any sense. Unless he thinks people are all going to exhibit their "better sides", create communes and produce and share each according to his blah, blah, blah. We know how THAT works out. Something tells me this guy wouldn't be the first to sign up for latrine duty, human nature being what it is, despite the authors superficial claims to the contrary. And here, he claims people even have a "worst" side!

>>>>Anarchism brings out our best - that's what it's
designed to do!<<<<

Market anarchism would certainly encourage cooperation among people.

>>>>>There is no fixed, inalienable human nature - people can change, and
society can change - for the better.<<<<<

Oh dear.... what can this mean? There is no fixed human nature....but people have "better sides"? Do these better and worst "sides" just come and go?

"The Workers" need to do better than this, it's pretty illogical and lame.

-------------------------------------
This page is from the print version of the Irish Anarchist paper
'Workers Solidarity'. http://struggle.ws/wsm/paper.html

commongroundrelief.org

and have no power to coerce me, I have no problem with them. There were many individuals who also helped victims of Katrina.

How close are you to completing your book?

Bobby,
"How close are you to completing your book?" Let me take the long way round. I follow a method taught to screen writers sometimes. Scene by scene I exhaustively map out my book. After that I do the finish in one or two passes.
The gut wrenching part of the book is in that first scene by scene mapping. I am presently mapping out the last third of the book. That should be complete before spring and the entire book finished by next Christmas.
For several reasons I got interested in gifted education but defined "gifted" pretty broadly. In the definition I am using the smartest 2.5 million people in Canada would be gifted. That would be equal to what -- the entire population of Greater Toronto?
If you read Gatto, Bauer, and Wise IMHO you pretty much have drawn a circle around the academic education side of things.
However, there are a couple of complicating factors in my theme. Studies show that population, everywhere, is forming its own neighborhoods. Sometimes those neighborhoods are physical and sometimes virtual.
I believe that one outstanding characteristic of that population in neighborhood is the speed with which they learn from each other. If you read UHAE I have in mind a process somewhat like Mr. Gatto described as the dialectic of the early Congregational Church in America and probably elsewhere.
That led me in to health, sex (relationships really) money management and so on. After that I had to avoid utopianism because I doubt very much it will be a utopia -- just a step beyond as homo sap was an advance over the neanderthal.
Back to our muttons. As you can tell from this thread. I have gotten interested in Mr. Gatto and Lee Harris' views on society and the role of religion.
Religion along with its other roles appears to be the enabling agent that allows men (mankind) to work together in trust when religion is able to establish expectations of honor and integrity among the population.
Mr. Gatto, I believe, also made the point that according to Bismark the army should be about the same size as the prison population.
I would love to read more on Bismark's thoughts about the Army and prisons.
My interpretation of the world and of Mr. Gatto's comments are that we will always have the criminal with us as we did during and after Katrina. They will always band together to cow the timid. However, there always seems to be an equal number of warriors that will band together to stop the criminal.
However the warriors will be governed by their moral or religious upbringing and not infringe upon morality.
Ron

Glad you're on your final phaze of your book. Keep us tuned on your progress Ron :-)

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

Bobby,
"How close are you to completing your book?" Let me take the long way round. I follow a method taught to screen writers sometimes. Scene by scene I exhaustively map out my book. After that I do the finish in one or two passes.
The gut wrenching part of the book is in that first scene by scene mapping. I am presently mapping out the last third of the book. That should be complete before spring and the entire book finished by next Christmas.
For several reasons I got interested in gifted education but defined "gifted" pretty broadly. In the definition I am using the smartest 2.5 million people in Canada would be gifted. That would be equal to what -- the entire population of Greater Toronto?
If you read Gatto, Bauer, and Wise IMHO you pretty much have drawn a circle around the academic education side of things.
However, there are a couple of complicating factors in my theme. Studies show that population, everywhere, is forming its own neighborhoods. Sometimes those neighborhoods are physical and sometimes virtual.
I believe that one outstanding characteristic of that population in neighborhood is the speed with which they learn from each other. If you read UHAE I have in mind a process somewhat like Mr. Gatto described as the dialectic of the early Congregational Church in America and probably elsewhere.
That led me in to health, sex (relationships really) money management and so on. After that I had to avoid utopianism because I doubt very much it will be a utopia -- just a step beyond as homo sap was an advance over the neanderthal.
Back to our muttons. As you can tell from this thread. I have gotten interested in Mr. Gatto and Lee Harris' views on society and the role of religion.
Religion along with its other roles appears to be the enabling agent that allows men (mankind) to work together in trust when religion is able to establish expectations of honor and integrity among the population.
Mr. Gatto, I believe, also made the point that according to Bismark the army should be about the same size as the prison population.
I would love to read more on Bismark's thoughts about the Army and prisons.
My interpretation of the world and of Mr. Gatto's comments are that we will always have the criminal with us as we did during and after Katrina. They will always band together to cow the timid. However, there always seems to be an equal number of warriors that will band together to stop the criminal.
However the warriors will be governed by their moral or religious upbringing and not infringe upon morality.
Ron

Bobby,
"Glad you're on your final phaze of your book. Keep us tuned on your progress Ron :-)"
Are you the one that turned me on to Teenage Liberation Handbook. I want to use that book to introduce my hero but it is a son of a gun to get delivered over Christmas.
Ron

No Ron, wasn't me who brought the book to your attention. Visiting this board for the past few years, I've noticed many people recomend the "Teenage Liberation Handbook", sounds like a good read. Our kids were liberated many years ago, you know me semi well as to how they were rescued. Reading about things in "books" is educational but the ability to READ ones' children and listen to them as they grow and I mean really "listen", can't come from a stranger who writes "best seller" books for profit.

Hopefully you get the book delivered but somehow I don't think it will slow your "hero" down if you surpas the Christmas rush ;-)

Your book sounds like it may be a read that our family will enjoy. Keep ~ plugging away, you'll finish it by next Christmas, right? Do you have a publisher or are you on your own? Editing your own work is a pain, do you have help with the editing?

I won't ask who your "hero" is, we'll wait until you publish your book :-)

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

Bobby,
"Glad you're on your final phaze of your book. Keep us tuned on your progress Ron "
Are you the one that turned me on to Teenage Liberation Handbook. I want to use that book to introduce my hero but it is a son of a gun to get delivered over Christmas.
Ron