This is a muddled up thinker. He is an apparent atheist who is trying to justify his opinions using Christian morality while denying it exists.

>>>>>>Thinking about anarchism: Anarchism and human nature

Ireland, Anarchist Workers Solidarity #89<<<<<<

If there is no capitalism, who do "the workers" work for? Is it required to be a "worker"? If so, how is this anarchism?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>"Then, in the souls of the oppressed, powerless men every other man is taken
for hostile, inconsiderate, exploitative, cruel, sly whether he be noble or base."
- Friedrich Nietzsche - Human, All Too Human, 1878.

It's the last line of defence against anarchism. You're in the pub,
you've convinced them, they can see the possibilities, they want to
know more - they're interested and then the voice pops up: "shure that
would never work because of.... human nature...bud" But, in fairness,
it is a very sincerely held belief by many people, that we are "naturally"
greedy, rotten feckers and, in the absence of government, some mad
form of capitalism would be inevitable.<<<<<<<<

The flaw here is believing that somehow government will be miraculouly free of these "greedy, rotten, feckers" (all gov't employees are altruistic saints protecting us, don't they tell us that in grade school?). The reality is that the raw power attracts the "greedy, rotten, feckers" like a magnet. The "protector" becomes the worst oppressor. He is also simply assuming capitalism is an evil.


>>>>>>Most anarchists, myself included, would see human nature as neither
good nor bad. The very terms are "socially constructed". People are
shaped by their biological make up and by their environment.<<<<

He takes the "nurture" side in nature vs nurture.

>>>>You
can't change your biological inheritance (much!) but the influence of
your parents, education, friends, the media and so on vary widely from
person to person. In general the prevailing morality of a society, indeed
the very concepts of "good" and "bad" are set out by the ruling forces
in that society.<<<<<

Good and evil DO exist. The concepts of "good and bad" the regular people are supposed to have ARE defined by the morality/worldview/religion of the ruling class. This author's worldview is that there is no real "good" or "evil", that they are artificial constructs forced on us, or so he says here.

>>>>>>>>>>We become shallow, snobby, alienated and hostile towards everyone
around us as per the Nietzsche quote above. We want to do others
down. Basically the system encourages everything that is crap in us!<<<<<

But wait!! What's this??!! These statements reflect ideas that indicate the author DOES believe some behaviors are "good" and some are "crap". Hhhmmm...what can this mean? I must read on to gain understanding.

>>>>>>>>But we know people can be better than this. Just look at voluntary
organisations like the GAA, the lifeboat service etc. Local community
groups draw on the time and effort of thousands of people, which they
give quite gladly. Further, many of these grassroots organisations,
though they may appear quite harmless and run of the mill are run in a
very democratic fashion.<<<<<

I see...Hhhhmmmmmm.... I see. "Shallow" (a judgement call if I ever heard one), "snobby" (an undesirable personality trait or simply a desire for solitude?), "alienated", and hostile" = "bad"...."Groups", "Community", "grassroots", "democracy", "thousands of people" = "good". And people "can be better" (or worse)?

So our leftist anarchist who says morality is an artificial construct DOES have some definite ideas on what is good and what is bad (morality). Individualism, independence, personal choice and discernment, and crankiness (perhaps with collectivising groupthinkers??) is "bad"; herds, collectives, groups, grassroots groups, and democracy are "good". Now this is interesting. Could his moral choices have anything to do with the fact that people are easier to manage in groups and herds (as we have seen with our discussions on the Alinsky methods and the Delphi technique)? Groups and gangs are more willing to do things they would not normally do on an individual basis. A person whose primary identity is as part of a herd essentially loses part of his humanity to become part of that herd. But to our author, I'm sure humans are just another species of animal to be managed.

>>>>>>Some even practice direct democracy and so (though they might be
shocked to hear it) are functionally anarchist.<<<<<<

Huh??? Democracy is majority rule. That implies some type of oppression of the minority, which is not anarchism.

>>>>>>They bring people
together, empower them and move them beyond in-duh-vidual
consumerism. They present for the system the danger of a good
example. We too know the power of a good example. When people
hear libertarian ideas and, where they see them working in practise
then their "better" side begins to emerge.<<<<<

"Consumerism" is "bad", "being brought together" is "good" (but why we must be herded, he doesn't say). And, astonishingly, here the author claims people have a "BETTER SIDE"!!! How can that be in his world where good and bad are artificial constructs? Does that not admit an "evil side" to man, ALL men, as well? Who decides what is a "better side"?


>>>>Capitalism or any society of
leaders and led inevitably brings out our worst - that's what it's
designed to do.<<<<<

I agree with the "leaders and led" part. But demonizing capitalism, without explaining how people are to trade and obtain goods and services doesn't make any sense. Unless he thinks people are all going to exhibit their "better sides", create communes and produce and share each according to his blah, blah, blah. We know how THAT works out. Something tells me this guy wouldn't be the first to sign up for latrine duty, human nature being what it is, despite the authors superficial claims to the contrary. And here, he claims people even have a "worst" side!

>>>>Anarchism brings out our best - that's what it's
designed to do!<<<<

Market anarchism would certainly encourage cooperation among people.

>>>>>There is no fixed, inalienable human nature - people can change, and
society can change - for the better.<<<<<

Oh dear.... what can this mean? There is no fixed human nature....but people have "better sides"? Do these better and worst "sides" just come and go?

"The Workers" need to do better than this, it's pretty illogical and lame.

-------------------------------------
This page is from the print version of the Irish Anarchist paper
'Workers Solidarity'. http://struggle.ws/wsm/paper.html

commongroundrelief.org

and have no power to coerce me, I have no problem with them. There were many individuals who also helped victims of Katrina.

How close are you to completing your book?

Bobby,
"How close are you to completing your book?" Let me take the long way round. I follow a method taught to screen writers sometimes. Scene by scene I exhaustively map out my book. After that I do the finish in one or two passes.
The gut wrenching part of the book is in that first scene by scene mapping. I am presently mapping out the last third of the book. That should be complete before spring and the entire book finished by next Christmas.
For several reasons I got interested in gifted education but defined "gifted" pretty broadly. In the definition I am using the smartest 2.5 million people in Canada would be gifted. That would be equal to what -- the entire population of Greater Toronto?
If you read Gatto, Bauer, and Wise IMHO you pretty much have drawn a circle around the academic education side of things.
However, there are a couple of complicating factors in my theme. Studies show that population, everywhere, is forming its own neighborhoods. Sometimes those neighborhoods are physical and sometimes virtual.
I believe that one outstanding characteristic of that population in neighborhood is the speed with which they learn from each other. If you read UHAE I have in mind a process somewhat like Mr. Gatto described as the dialectic of the early Congregational Church in America and probably elsewhere.
That led me in to health, sex (relationships really) money management and so on. After that I had to avoid utopianism because I doubt very much it will be a utopia -- just a step beyond as homo sap was an advance over the neanderthal.
Back to our muttons. As you can tell from this thread. I have gotten interested in Mr. Gatto and Lee Harris' views on society and the role of religion.
Religion along with its other roles appears to be the enabling agent that allows men (mankind) to work together in trust when religion is able to establish expectations of honor and integrity among the population.
Mr. Gatto, I believe, also made the point that according to Bismark the army should be about the same size as the prison population.
I would love to read more on Bismark's thoughts about the Army and prisons.
My interpretation of the world and of Mr. Gatto's comments are that we will always have the criminal with us as we did during and after Katrina. They will always band together to cow the timid. However, there always seems to be an equal number of warriors that will band together to stop the criminal.
However the warriors will be governed by their moral or religious upbringing and not infringe upon morality.
Ron

Glad you're on your final phaze of your book. Keep us tuned on your progress Ron :-)

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

Bobby,
"How close are you to completing your book?" Let me take the long way round. I follow a method taught to screen writers sometimes. Scene by scene I exhaustively map out my book. After that I do the finish in one or two passes.
The gut wrenching part of the book is in that first scene by scene mapping. I am presently mapping out the last third of the book. That should be complete before spring and the entire book finished by next Christmas.
For several reasons I got interested in gifted education but defined "gifted" pretty broadly. In the definition I am using the smartest 2.5 million people in Canada would be gifted. That would be equal to what -- the entire population of Greater Toronto?
If you read Gatto, Bauer, and Wise IMHO you pretty much have drawn a circle around the academic education side of things.
However, there are a couple of complicating factors in my theme. Studies show that population, everywhere, is forming its own neighborhoods. Sometimes those neighborhoods are physical and sometimes virtual.
I believe that one outstanding characteristic of that population in neighborhood is the speed with which they learn from each other. If you read UHAE I have in mind a process somewhat like Mr. Gatto described as the dialectic of the early Congregational Church in America and probably elsewhere.
That led me in to health, sex (relationships really) money management and so on. After that I had to avoid utopianism because I doubt very much it will be a utopia -- just a step beyond as homo sap was an advance over the neanderthal.
Back to our muttons. As you can tell from this thread. I have gotten interested in Mr. Gatto and Lee Harris' views on society and the role of religion.
Religion along with its other roles appears to be the enabling agent that allows men (mankind) to work together in trust when religion is able to establish expectations of honor and integrity among the population.
Mr. Gatto, I believe, also made the point that according to Bismark the army should be about the same size as the prison population.
I would love to read more on Bismark's thoughts about the Army and prisons.
My interpretation of the world and of Mr. Gatto's comments are that we will always have the criminal with us as we did during and after Katrina. They will always band together to cow the timid. However, there always seems to be an equal number of warriors that will band together to stop the criminal.
However the warriors will be governed by their moral or religious upbringing and not infringe upon morality.
Ron

Bobby,
"Glad you're on your final phaze of your book. Keep us tuned on your progress Ron :-)"
Are you the one that turned me on to Teenage Liberation Handbook. I want to use that book to introduce my hero but it is a son of a gun to get delivered over Christmas.
Ron

No Ron, wasn't me who brought the book to your attention. Visiting this board for the past few years, I've noticed many people recomend the "Teenage Liberation Handbook", sounds like a good read. Our kids were liberated many years ago, you know me semi well as to how they were rescued. Reading about things in "books" is educational but the ability to READ ones' children and listen to them as they grow and I mean really "listen", can't come from a stranger who writes "best seller" books for profit.

Hopefully you get the book delivered but somehow I don't think it will slow your "hero" down if you surpas the Christmas rush ;-)

Your book sounds like it may be a read that our family will enjoy. Keep ~ plugging away, you'll finish it by next Christmas, right? Do you have a publisher or are you on your own? Editing your own work is a pain, do you have help with the editing?

I won't ask who your "hero" is, we'll wait until you publish your book :-)

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

Bobby,
"Glad you're on your final phaze of your book. Keep us tuned on your progress Ron "
Are you the one that turned me on to Teenage Liberation Handbook. I want to use that book to introduce my hero but it is a son of a gun to get delivered over Christmas.
Ron