Don't forget www.jewsagainstzionism.com, www.jewsnotzionists.com and, Israel SHamir! All Jews, all against Zionism.The first group calls themselves Torah Jews. I wonder if they are opposed to the Talmud?

Don't expect them to care. Their minds are made up. Interesting finds though...

Noel

Hi Moi,

It's funny how, for a couple of centuries now, there's been an ongoing project to completely dismember Christianity and the Bible as well as thoroughly sanitize the public square from any hint of Christian expression. However, criticize the Talmud and suddenly some will want to (pardon the expression) crucify you!

Although some will always respond with a knee-jerk reaction when a certain religious group is mentioned, I agree with you that it is vital to understand this religion and its foundational documents in order to understand events in the world today.

Talmudism has had a vast impact upon the world, right down to the things we see happening in the Middle East today. We see people on TV and radio yammering endlessly about how we must defeat "Islamo-fascism," but what if there is a danger of "Talmudo-fascism" as well? What if an extreme variant of Islam is not alone in containing a totalitarian impulse and a double standard conferring superiority upon a small, special group of people? I believe the evident fact that the U.S. media values Israeli lives far above Palestinian or Lebanese lives, has to do with this double standard that holds one special group to be "more equal" than all the rest. And that attitude can be traced back to Talmudism and its twisting of the original concept of a "chosen people."

By the way, the Jews are not the only group with a "Talmud." Many religious groups have them. In other words, all these groups claiming to be based upon a divinely inspired scripture have developed additional bodies of religious traditions and interpretations of "sages" which add to, obscure, or in many cases directly contradict the original scriptures!

Roman Catholicism has been writing its Talmud for 1,700 years, and it's not finished yet. Fundamentalist Christian groups have their versions of the Talmud too. (Even "Bible-based" sects have lots of doctrines and rules that are not prescribed, if even hinted at, in the Bible they claim to believe.) And of course, Muslims have their Talmud as well. That is the story of manmade religion.

Yeshua of Nazareth himself referred to such bodies of tradition in his frequent excoriations of the Pharisees (the "religious right" of their day) for following their convoluted and impossibly burdensome traditions instead of the comparatively simple laws of Yahweh. Pharasaism won out, so Judaism for most of the last 2,000 years has followed the path of the Pharisees. Nothing much has changed.

Talmuds abound in other fields as well (particularly those with large concentrations of Talmudists). Take the field of law, and in particular, Constitutional law. Consider how a relatively simple, plainly written, unlawyerly document that any American (even the dumbed-down American of today) could read and understand, has been garbled, obscured, and mysticalized by the black-robed priesthood who believe that only they are capable of divining its mysterious, esoteric secrets. Look at how so-called "case law" made by judges has obscured and overturned actual laws made by leglislatures. You are witnessing the application of ancient Talmudism to modern-day American law.

...ongoing project to completely dismember Christianity and the Bible as well as thoroughly sanitize the public square from any hint of Christian expression....


Well, not quite that long, more like a cenury, give or take a couple of decades. But that's long enough.


And

...I believe the evident fact that the U.S. media values Israeli lives far above Palestinian or Lebanese lives, has to do with this double standard...


And I meant to add, "U.S. foreign policy," in which the double standard is perhaps even more egregious.

Bingo!!!!!!

Since you have such a respect for the Bible, perhaps you should consider the scripture that says "He who blesses Israel will be blessed and he who curses Israel will be cursed." It means nothing to me, but you're the Christian, after all. No doubt you can do a fair bit of "talmudizing" to get around that admonition.

No one crucified anyone for criticising the Talmud. It's all voodoo to me. But we all know that, except for the orthodox who make up a minority of the Jews throughout the world, the Talmud has never been touched by most Jews. Jews possibly more than anyone are willing to question and criticize their own "holy" books. Thus the vast number of reform, conservative, reconstructionist, humanistic, and secular Jews.

Why not respond to me rather than Moi? Unless the folks offering up warmed over Nazi ideology just want to hear each other talk. There are plenty of other message boards for that.

Since you have such a respect for the Bible, perhaps you should consider the scripture that says "He who blesses Israel will be blessed and he who curses Israel will be cursed."


There is no such scripture.

Such a promise was made to an individual named Abraham. It was never made to a 20th-century state calling itself Israel, nor even to all people calling themselves Jews or practicing a religion called Judaism. That's the short answer.


No one crucified anyone for criticising the Talmud.


Well, you're implying that those who criticize the Talmud are Nazis, and surely that's a form of figurative crucifixion.

But we all know that, except for the orthodox who make up a minority of the Jews throughout the world, the Talmud has never been touched by most Jews


Not today, but I'm speaking in historical terms. Until the last few generations, the Jews in general were a devoutly religious people and identified (and segregated) themselves accordingly. Their beliefs and their communities were strictly run according to Talmudic doctrine. Despite secularization, no one (especially not Jews) would deny that this religion has deeply influenced them to this day. The more introspective and candid among them acknowledge that some of these influences -- particularly along the lines of clannishness and feelings of superiority over the "goyim" -- have not served them well. A little honesty would provide an answer to the constant wail of "why does everybody hate us, seeing how much better we are than all of them?"


... warmed over Nazi ideology ...


How much easier it is to label your opponent a Nazi than to intelligently respond to his views. That's sad.

Well, like I said, I don't hold to the Bible. But most Christians do interpret that passage that way. Maybe you know better.

I never said that anyone who criticizes the Talmud is a Nazi (I personally think we'd all be better off if the Talmud, the Bible, and the Koran were never written by their obviously flawed, human authors). And my Nazi comment was more directed to Moi than to you. Although your generalizations about clannishness and feelings of superiority are the same ones made by anti-semites throughout the ages. What group has been immune to that may I ask? And I suppose one would have to reject the Bible with its concept of chosenness, which is no doubt where these supposed feelings of superiority got their start. Your immediate statement that "Christians have put up with persecution so why do the Jews complain" is inherently flawed. If you don't like how some secularists and some Jews treat Christianity, fine. But two wrongs certainly don't make a right.

And I don't see any toe-the-line apologists for Israel here. So if Mr. Gatto doesn't mind, I suppose an intelligent debate on the matter could be held. But really, Henry Ford? Khazars? Protocols of the Elders of Zion? Debate ideas. But don't use the old lies.

And since you're so focussed on the Talmud, what would you have Jews do? These volumes were written centuries ago and you seem to have implicity agreed that they have been left behind by many Jews. Yet you are holding Jews somehow responsible for it en masse. And like I said, if you comb the scriptures of all faiths, you're going to find exculsionary passages. I don't think I need to quote them, but non-Christians going to hell, infidels deserving death, are pretty straightforward. So let's not point fingers unless you want some pointing back at you. Remember, Moi started this whole thing by attacking "Khazars" and "Talmudists". It wasn't the other way around.

my post above listing the many Jews who have worked hard against zionism.

Let's also not forget that the intermarriage rate among Jews hovers around 50%. Doesn't sound very clannish to me. I doubt that the adopted Asian children of the one half-Jewish couple I know would agree with your assessment of Jews as clannish and superior.

Looking back, I see that I never labeled anyone a Nazi. But "warmed over Nazi ideology" is accurate. The Nazis were very big on proclaiming Judaism to be inauthentic, which seems to be a big thing to you. Might not make you a Nazi, but I wouldn't feel comfortable spouting Nazi beliefs about Jews. Maybe that's just me.

Some Christians would see any post-Jesus version of Judaism as inauthentic, by the way, since Christianity is supposedly the fulfillment of Judaism. It seems to me Jews would have to either continue sacrificing animals in a temple that was destroyed by the Romans or become Christians to make you happy with their religion. I guess they found a way that works for them. Some are still finding it.

Noel,

No, you didn't explicitly label anyone a Nazi, you just implied it by saying they were serving up "warmed-over Nazi ideology," which in Zionist-speak is tantamount to an accusation of being a Nazi. Perhaps we should choose our words more carefully. (I really mean "we," including myself -- I am careless with my words sometimes too.)


Some Christians would see any post-Jesus version of Judaism as inauthentic, by the way, since Christianity is supposedly the fulfillment of Judaism. It seems to me Jews would have to either continue sacrificing animals in a temple that was destroyed by the Romans or become Christians to make you happy with their religion.


I agree with you. That's the existential dilemma of Judaism, and this backdrop of self-doubt could be one of the reasons why large segments of Jewry got so sidetracked into things like materialism, Marxism, secular humanism, Zionism, and attacking Christianity and any public manifestation thereof.

The fact is that Judaism in itself is an unfulfilled religion. The faith of the Old Testament was never meant to be the final word since it always anticipated fulfillment in the coming of a Messiah. When Jerusalem and the Temple (and therefore the means of practicing the faith) were destroyed, that signaled the closing of a window and presented a very stark choice for believers: either the Messiah had already come, or the religion of the Jews was a fraud.

The Pharisees and their followers, however, continued to limp along, and it seems that a lot of the desire for a Messiah has been mischanneled into political movements such as Marxism and Zionism. Zionism, in fact, is an intensely Messianic ideology, except that its messiah seems to be a secular political state.

Well said, afa.

You might not want to cast too many of your pearls before the swine in that Noel isn;t interested much in learning about authentic Christianity (her words to Mrs Preterist), or any of Christianity's variants at all. Her loss.

I might add that your comments regarding the clannish nature of Jews is in fact correct, although their proximate behavior vis a vis each other is as normal as the sun's rise in LG's eastern Boston sky (viz, Mexicans, Asians, Indians, Africans, African Americans, et al are likewise clannish...American WASPS are the exception. Lonely buggers, them white boys).

Chicago's fortunate to have ya, and so is JTG.com.

nt

That's mighty white of you missy.

Hey, I know! Dispensational premillenialism is just one more Jewish plot! In fact, I'm really Moi/Carmen who posted just in order to get this thread rolling and have a forum for furthering the agenda of the Worldwide Jewish Conspiracy!

Well, you DO serve up warmed over Nazi ideology, regardless of what this may be zionist speak for. It's a plain enough fact, and you sound comfortable doing so, so what's the problem?

And since I'm no theologian, I'll leave you to your beliefs. Too bad there's no learned Jew to answer you. I'm sure that would be a fascinating exchange.

I notice, however, that you are very happy to point out the flaws in other folks' religious beliefs instead of realizing that, short of God speaking to us personally, we're all just doing our best to make it in this crazy world. Kind of ironic that you who accuse Jews of feelings of superiority have no problems attacking their religion. I don't see Jews caring a whit what Christians believe. Although no doubt you will be able to cite many examples of this, probably dug up in 2000 year old texts, or in reliable Czarist forgeries, or told to you by your Jewish "friend".

You seem indignant that Jews have not, for the most part, had the veil lifted from their eyes and accepted your Lord and Savior. This indignation is the source of atrocities against Jews throughout the ages and, regardless of whether you think I'm spouting Zionist propaganda or trying to elicit pity or whatever, it led not all that circuitously to the fires of Auschwitz.

Oh sorry, 60 years is SUCH a LOOOONG time. Let's all get over it! The Jews sort of deserved it after all.

Rant on, Noel, as your slogans and labels only serve to induce rest and jest at their best.

It's good to see you have a conscience. Wanna guess where it came from? Oh, sorry, I forgot your not interested in learning about that which you have sooooo many opinions about.

I respect your moral impulses, but keep in mind that you're not likely to make too many friends or enjoin listening ears with your indignant tone and aspersions toward others. Your venom is every bit a lethal as that of those you scorn, and given the right opportunity might manifest itself in the way you claim is loathesome to you.

Discovering the underlying truth of yourself will be more illuminating than pointing out the flaws in those who don't see the world with your narrowed, admittedly ignorant (by choice) on religiuos subjects, perception.

In the word's of Robert Plant, there's still time to change the road you're on.

We're getting somewhat afield from the original post -- in fact, I don't even recall what the original post said. However, there are worthwhile things to say, so why not continue.


Although your generalizations about clannishness and feelings of superiority are the same ones made by anti-semites throughout the ages. What group has been immune to that may I ask?


My purpose is not to demonize Jews (for whatever that label is worth). Some of my best friends are Jews, and at least one of them feels as strongly about Zionism as I do. In one of the first conversations we ever had about the subject of Zionism, I played the devil's advocate and said, "but didn't the Jews need a homeland because of all the persecution they suffered?" and she replied, "but we brought a lot of that on ourselves." That struck me as a remarkably honest and insightful comment. (By the way, I'm with Bill Cosby and a lot of other thoughtful black Americans when it comes to our own problems: we've brought a lot of them upon ourselves too.)

Most groups are clannish and tribalistic to some extent, but none like the Jews throughout their history. If you read their own histories, you find that much of the segregation was self-enforced as a way to avoid contact with the unclean Gentile -- and, I suspect, a way for their leaders to keep them under control. That is fading somewhat as secularization and Westernization take their hold. However, the Jewish political establishment or "organized Jewry" seems every bit as determined to hold onto and enforce it throughout their ranks. It is this apparatus which advocated and continues to prop up Zionism.


And I suppose one would have to reject the Bible with its concept of chosenness, which is no doubt where these supposed feelings of superiority got their start. ...


As I said before, I think that is a twisting of the real message of the Bible. Whenever one reads of the promises to Abraham and his descendants in the Bible, one reads of great promises but also of great responsibility. Many of the promises are conditioned upon Israel adhering to strict standards of righteousness -- standards which the very same Bible shows the Israelites continually rejected. The Israelites were to have been a light to the world, an example of a God-fearing, righteous, and prosperous nation. They were not chosen to glory in their own superiority so much as to declare the superiority and sovereignty of the one true God.

Their own scripture, the Old Testament, dispassionately chronicles how they rejected their God and their responsibility and were divinely punished for their sin. It contains the excoriating condemnation of their own prophets, the likes of which were uttered by a Gentile today, would result in immediate crucifixion (yes, I used it again) as evil and anti-semitic. In fact, they persecuted and killed their prophets, who were their own flesh and blood.

Christians and Muslims know this story (well, at least Christians used to know it, but this knowledge has been propagandized out of them in recent decades), which is why it is a particular affront to have a group representing themselves as Israel again picking up the 3,000 -year-old banner of "the chosen people" and the true inheritors of the Promised Land.

I'm not at all arguing for persecution of the Jews or anyone else. However, I do think they should not be as exempt from criticism as they (i.e., the powerful among them) would like to be. I think they deserve to be condemned when they persecute others, and to be held to the same standard as everyone else.


But really, Henry Ford? Khazars? Protocols of the Elders of Zion? Debate ideas. But don't use the old lies.


The "lies" were popularized in a book by Arthur Koestler, a Jew, but had also been reported long before that in an evil anti-semitic publication known as the Encyclopedia Judaica. Seeing how racial pedigree from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob seems such an important part of the Jewish claims of specialness, the revelation that the majority today are not descendants of those patriarchs at all would certainly throw a monkey wrench into the whole machine.

Christians know (or ought to know) what the Israelites were long ago warned, and what Yeshua preached. God is able to create sons of Abraham from the stones of the ground. Abraham himself was chosen for special blessings not because of his pedigree but because of his obedient faith. Half a century later, after being freed from captivity, the Israelites were again promised that they would be God's "chosen people" as long as they showed the same obedient faith, worshiping Yahweh and keeping his laws. THe rest of the Old Testament chronicles how they refused to do so, and were sorely punished, with the final punishment being the taking away of their land and kingdom and being scattered to the four winds. The anti-Zionists (which include Jews and others) view Zionism, correctly in my opinion, as an attempt to reverse this judgment; to sieze upon the legacy of Abraham and Israel to create a secular "Kingdom of God" in violation of God's will. In so doing, this movement threatens to send the world into war. This is deadly serious business and it deserves to be understood by all.

Where the Talmudic religion comes in is as a foundation and prelude to Zionism, in setting up the "us versus them" antagonism against Christianity that set the stage for Zionism. It is in fact a religious war, or rather, a struggle for power under the banner of religion, that has been bubbling largely under the surface for 2,000 years. I would also condemn Christians who have persecuted Jews, since it is pretty clear that Christians are not supposed to harm others or engage in retaliation. However, it is what it is, and needs to be recognized as such. That's all I have time for tonight.

Where the Talmudic religion comes in is as a foundation and prelude to Zionism, in setting up the "us versus them" antagonism against Christianity that set the stage for Zionism. It is in fact a religious war, or rather, a struggle for power under the banner of religion, that has been bubbling largely under the surface for 2,000 years. I would also condemn Christians who have persecuted Jews, since it is pretty clear that Christians are not supposed to harm others or engage in retaliation. However, it is what it is, and needs to be recognized as such. That's all I have time for tonight.

***************************************************

If, following upon centuries of persecution of Jews by Christians, the Dreyfus trial hadn't taken place, with crowds shouting "Death to the Jews," Herzl might not have been convinced of the need for a Jewish homeland. The Talmud was not something that set up an "us versus them" antagonism with Christianity.

Arthur Koestler did not popularize the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, which circulated pre-Third Reich and influenced, shall we say, Germans in their persecution of Jews. Arthur Koestler did not popularize Henry's Ford's The International Jew.

If Israel had been founded in Uganda, maybe some of its neighbors wouldn't have been set on annihilating the country. But it wasn't founded in Uganda, and any Promised Land zealotry on the part of Israel is matched by Christian beliefs of Armageddon or the Second Coming or whatever the Christian right-wing fundamentalists believe about the war in the Middle East. Maybe in recognizing that "it is what it is," you should also recognize Christian and Islamist religious input into the ongoing conflagrations instead of harking back to divine retribution in the Old Testament!

Now that the country exists, it should be permitted to exist in peace with its neighbors. Hezbollah is not Isaiah or Habbakuk or Nahum.

No offense, but your Jewish friend sounds like an idiot. Expulsions, inquisitions, pogroms, genocide... I think a little clannishness would be in order, wouldn't you? It's a wonder that every single Jew is not a homicidal sociopath. Instead, Jews have contributed to the enrichment of society far beyond their numbers.

As far as choseness is concerned, the Christians I know would take that far more seriously than the Jews.
And I'd personally characterize Christians who believe non-Christians are ****ed to be more "superior" in feeling than Jews who believe "the righteous of all nations have a share in the world to come." (That's from talmudic writings, by the way.) And I'm well aware of your salvation through faith beliefs and it's availability to EVERYONE, but I'm not impressed.

The more I think about your calling Jews hypocrites for fighting against Christianity in the public sphere while bringing their "talmudical" worldview into our legal system, the more contrived and twisted your argument seems. Sorry, but only someone looking for a reason to disdain Jews could come up with something so bizarre.

The bottom line, FA, is that everything you ascribe to Jews--clannishness, a corrupt nation-state--could be said of any group. Because Jews are a minority which has achieved prominence in many fields (due, no doubt, to their esteem of learning) there have always been non-Jews who resent this iconic Other. It really does come down to that. Jews are successful and have the chutzpah to fight for what they believe, and that is just intolerable to some.

Moi introduced this discussion with a plea to look at information at iamthewitness.com.

Discussion of Zionism or the Talmud in such an inflammatory, National Enquirerlike context is futile.

Despite holding forth on religion as if you are knowledgeable on both the mundane and arcane history of different traditions, at the end of your post you sound like a bigot, not an impartial historian, criticizing Jewish people for having segregated themselves while claiming to be persecuted for being "better" than everybody else. Did Jews isolate themselves out of a sense of superiority or because they were not admitted to the dominant society unless they converted to Christianity? If Jews did in fact regard themselves as superior to the "goyim," would that justify or explain away persecution and scapegoating throughout the ages?

Moi seems to be saying that Zionists are betraying the Jews, and you seem to be saying that Judaism itself is the source of Zionism. Or isn't that what you're saying?

In addition to picturing Mel Gibson as some type of victim of a plot, the website that moi recommended also cites Arthur Koestler's book on Khazars, The Thirteenth Tribe. Maybe a small band of Khazars is plotting to control the world and destroy the human race. It's good of moi to sound the alert to save real Jews, not imposters, from such a fate.

It seems to me that the iamthewitness site discusses important issues and asks important questions that are being asked by Jews, Christians, Muslims and agnostics alike.

Its tone is somewhat inflammatory, but that is what tends to happen when freedom of speech and thought are suppressed.

... the question of the Jews has come to the fore ... efforts will be made to hush it up as impolitic for open discussion. If, however, experience has taught us anything it is that questions thus suppressed will sooner or later break out in undesirable and unprofitable forms.

(Henry Ford, The International Jew)

at the end of your post you sound like a bigot, not an impartial historian, criticizing Jewish people for having segregated themselves while claiming to be persecuted for being "better" than everybody else. Did Jews isolate themselves out of a sense of superiority or because they were not admitted to the dominant society unless they converted to Christianity?


The Jews had always isolated themselves. This is common knowledge.

[The rulers of Alexandria] set apart for them a particular place, that they might live without being polluted [by the gentiles]. (Flavius Josephus, The Wars of the Jews. 2:487-48

(taken from here

See the 2nd chapter of Galatians re: this issue in the early Christian church. This continued into the diaspora.

To a large extent this probably caused tje perception that Jews regarded themselves as better than their hosts.

Of course there was also persecution by "Christians," which further solidified this antagonism, but even where the Jews were perfectly free they tended to segregate themselves.

The "Christian" persecution of Jews, when it genuinely occurred, was wrong. Christians were not called to persecute, take revenge, shed blood, or to wield worldly political power. True Christians are not to engage in wars and feuds. However, many professing Christians fell into this kind of behavior. But it's not as if it were completely irrational and unprovoked.



Moi seems to be saying that Zionists are betraying the Jews, and you seem to be saying that Judaism itself is the source of Zionism. <,/i>


Both. The Jews have been and are being betrayed by their own leaders. Zionism springs from the longing for a Messiah, twisted and misapplied for the purposes of political power.