Whoseyoudaddy is me.

There certainly are a lot of lost souls and misery. But you never know. Look at St. Paul. Dave and I part company when it comes to government. Joe Sobran wrote that expecting government to serve people is like expecting a tiger to plow a field (or something like that). Only the worst will rise to the top. I think you have quite a lot of magic and myth of your own...what was that yell you used to do?

That "yell" was the warpspasm, and I wish he'd warpspasm at Joe Sobran. What a nonsensical thing to say. Government can't serve people, but through privatization of government functions people will be served?

I tend to think that Jack's myth and mystery and intuitive right-braining are balanced with level-headed left-brained reasoning. And some refreshing irreverence.

>>>  That "yell" was the warpspasm, and I wish he'd warpspasm at Joe Sobran. What a nonsensical thing to say. Government can't serve people, but through privatization of government functions people will be served? <<<<<

It's not nonsense, it's true. You aren't getting it. Privatization of gov't functions, like roads, police, etc. WOULD serve people because they would have to compete for contracts. Government serves no one but themselves, cronies, and people who they view as valuable to helping them maintain power.

>>>>I tend to think that Jack's myth and mystery and intuitive right-braining are balanced with level-headed left-brained reasoning. And some refreshing irreverence.<<<

I meant no disrespect to Jack. I love the warpspasm.

I do rail at the sun and the moon. At least once a day I try to ***** about the weather unless I'm busy sacrificing infants and puppies using the guidelines provided to me by the Dick Cheney How to Win Friends, Kick Ass and Establish a Corporate Theocracy Institute.
Every once in a while I can manage to get the sun to go behind the clouds and the humidity level to fall.

If the poor and evil are always with us, why try to do anything to ameliorate them in the world? Why try to be doing good works when we can spend time talking about how many angels dance on the head of a pin?

I hear you repeat the same answer with a few variations to whatever topic is posed. Freedom from the State is necessary to end oppression. All forms of government except God's (and who is to say what that is?) are oppressive. Government is bad because it leads to bloated bureacracy and oppression, and you can't have limited government, which would be like a being a little bit pregnant. I think that's a faulty analogy, since humanly conceived forms of government, ever in flux, are not the same as a biological condition, not the same as yes/no, right/wrong, on/off...

We cannot realistically expect to overthrow human government and live in a state of harmonious anarchy tomorrow or in the foreseeable future. Therefore, what's the point of doing anything? Is this your position? Why try to resist if oppression is our fate, the poor are always with us, human nature is so flawed that it is impossible to follow moral "absolutes," yet it's not impossible to fall back on God's mercy when falling short of absolute adherence to the absolutes?

Do you experience cognitive dissonance within the worldview you've adopted? Spartacus talked about the "gap" concept of God, as in fill in the gap and say God's responsible for what we don't understand. Does your human-nature-is-flawed position cover all the gaps that are left by Christianity, anarchy, the free market, no taxation because taxation is theft?

Is it possible for humans to organize to do anything constructive, or, in your view, is organization inherently a power play, the wish for one to dominate others instead of accomplish goals? If you don't think one person should dominate another, why do you speak in favor of men's natural dominance or the rightness of a husband being head of the household? Is it impossible to conceive of co-chairs of the household without men being emasculated? My point here is that family's are organized, households are organized, and in this one instance, you make an exception for the rightness of hierarchical dominance.

Why?

>>>If the poor and evil are always with us, why try to do anything to ameliorate them in the world? Why try to be doing good works when we can spend time talking about how many angels dance on the head of a pin?<<<<

Because it is the right thing to do, we are all God's creatures and deserve respect and justice. But ameliorating the misery of the world must be a personal choice, not leaders deciding who and how amelioration should be done, confiscating property to do as they see fit.

>>>>I hear you repeat the same answer with a few variations to whatever topic is posed. Freedom from the State is necessary to end oppression. All forms of government except God's (and who is to say what that is?)<<<<<

That is exactly why gov't is bad, who is to say? Who is fit to rule his fellow man? I'm sorry to sound repetitious, but human aggression is usually at the root of our problems and government is the most egregious example of human aggression.

>>>> are oppressive. Government is bad because it leads to bloated bureacracy and oppression,<<<<

Human gov't is bad because it is based on elimination of free will (and personal irresponsibility), which God meant us to exercise, it is always aggression, and always corrupt.

>>>> and you can't have limited government, which would be like a being a little bit pregnant. I think that's a faulty analogy, since humanly conceived forms of government, ever in flux, are not the same as a biological condition, not the same as yes/no, right/wrong, on/off...<<<<

Human governments very rarely go off and on. They proceed inexorably onward to totalitarianism or revolution and the cycle begins again. Government always seeks to expand it's own power. A limited government will not stay that way, it will expand because it alone has the authority to define it's own power.

>>>>We cannot realistically expect to overthrow human government and live in a state of harmonious anarchy tomorrow or in the foreseeable future. Therefore, what's the point of doing anything?<<<<

All we can do is educate people, help the paradigm shift to the realization that people can exist in a cooperative manner without masters. De-school them.

>>>>> Is this your position? Why try to resist if oppression is our fate, the poor are always with us, human nature is so flawed that it is impossible to follow moral "absolutes," yet it's not impossible to fall back on God's mercy when falling short of absolute adherence to the absolutes?<<<<

Because we are flawed and prone to evil doesn't mean we should succumb to it. We should be aware of it, fight the impulse to do evil and do good. It's what God wants. He doesn't want us forced to turn from evil, he wants us to choose good freely. We will always fall short. But isn't it wonderful to know that good exists, that there are people who will make the good choice against tremendous odds in a world overrun with evil, maybe not every time but enough to give us a tiny glimpse of God?

>>>>Do you experience cognitive dissonance within the worldview you've adopted?<<<<<

No.

>>>>Spartacus talked about the "gap" concept of God, as in fill in the gap and say God's responsible for what we don't understand. Does your human-nature-is-flawed position cover all the gaps that are left by Christianity, anarchy, the free market, no taxation because taxation is theft?<<<<

I'm not sure what gaps you mean. If you mean evil, yes, I would say that human sin pretty much covers it.

>>>>>Is it possible for humans to organize to do anything constructive, or, in your view, is organization inherently a power play, the wish for one to dominate others instead of accomplish goals?<<<<<

No. Organization is great, leaders will always arise. It becomes evil when it is forced on people, when one person or people aggresses against other persons/people to force a system or organization. People freely contracting or agreeing to cooperate or exchange goods and services with each other is how we are meant to live. We have been trained to fear freedom, self government, to demand to be enslaved by masters who run our lives for their benefit through aggression.

>>>>> If you don't think one person should dominate another, why do you speak in favor of men's natural dominance or the rightness of a husband being head of the household?<<<<<

My personal opinion, just based on observation, not scientific evidence, is that women tend to be more manipulative in behavior because of their smaller size and strength. They tend to be more fearful because of their vulnerability and want control over the behavior of others. They will also promote their own personal family interests at the expense of other people's children in a heartbeat. They tend to have a limited perspective. This is not universally true. Men tend to be less fearful, more willing to take risks, explore, question. And this is not universally true.

>>>> Is it impossible to conceive of co-chairs of the household without men being emasculated? My point here is that family's are organized, households are organized, and in this one instance, you make an exception for the rightness of hierarchical dominance.<<<<

Most families do have a sort of equality of partners in the marriage these days. But sometimes it comes down to a decision that one must make. Organization within the family is private, freely chosen, except for the kids, who don't get to pick their parents. A mate chosen according to Biblical principles will usually be a good one and make good decisions for the family and taker careful consideration of the wife's input, most good marriage partners actively seek out and value their spouses counsel, it's not aggression or domination. I don't sanction bullying, abuse, beating, etc. by either spouse, of course.

Thank you for expanding and clarifying your position, especially on the male "dominance" issue. We will never agree on anarchy, so no purpose in belaboring that one.

I have started a voluntary I-QUIT-CYBERSPACE club and I must get back to the membership list, the invitations for the pot luck dinner/support meeting on Saturday and the announcement for our 12-step keynoter for the first meeting.

Cyber fiction. Like it?

Happy summertime, js. Stay cool.

You said: "The big bang and evolution are the Holy work of God."

>>> Let me rephrase that in a way you may find more acceptable... "Creation is the Holy work of God"

I'm sorry, Spartacus. I misunderstood what you meant when you said you were a born-again Christian. After reading that statement above I realize that the common ground I thought we might have had for a discussion doesn't exist after all.

>>> I'm sorry, Dave. I misunderstood what you meant when you said you were a born-again Christian. Does this mean Jesus won't save my soul unless in addition to repentance and asking Christ to live in my heart I must accept the literal 6 day interpretation of Genesis. If that is the case the poor Saint Augustine (who wrote City of God) is lost. After reading that statement above I realize that the common ground I thought we might have had for a discussion doesn't exist after all if that is how you want it to be.

All I can say at this point is to give you the same advice I gave Jose in a thread below: Pray, read the Bible while in the Holy Spirit, and learn from a good, solid, Bible-believing Bible teacher. For your sake, I would also add: Get a Bible concordance, look up the word "blaspheme." If you really are a born-again Christian, that's something you should be concerned about. If you aren't, then it won't mean much to you anyway.

>>> Blaspheme

1 : to speak of or address with irreverence
2 : REVILE, ABUSE

I've not blasphemed against God.



Sorry you think we've no common ground Dave. See you in heaven someday.

Spartacus