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Less Is More Horsemanship Forum
Welcome to the Less Is More Forum. This forum is to post questions, comments, suggestions, ideas, principles, concepts and ideas regarding Natural Horsemanship and more importantly, the philosophy of "Less IS More". This is a place where like-minded people can come to throw away all the old traditional ways of training, and riding, and begin to experience a new FREEDOM in their relationship with their equine partners. Whether your goal is to learn more about natural horsemanship, get support for your own personal Less Is More belief, find solutions for problems that are hindering your relationship, begin a journey of discovery or healing, this is your home. Regardless of what the current "fads" are in traditional circles or natural horsemanship circles, I encourage you to think 'outside the box'. Feel free to post a message.
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| Viewing Page 1 of 1 (Total Posts: 9) |
| Author | Comment |
RebelsMom
Jul 1, 07 - 8:14 AM |
Parelli Level two or John Lyons: Best Start for the Unbroke Horse?
I feel sort of stuck. We've now completed all of the exercises in the level one program but I feel like he's telling me he's still not ready for a saddle. I rode him yesterday bareback and he was loving it! He's better with me riding him than he is on the ground! But he still hates the saddle! I feel like I might need to do more before I start the saddling, so I'm not sure if I should go with Parelli or John Lyons. I feel like I might need more of a young horse program. I really don't know what to do... Like I posted before I think there are holes in our relationship the games aren't filling.... Thanks so much! |
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KathyD
Jul 1st, 2007 - 9:54 PM |
Re: Parelli Level two or John Lyons: Best Start for the Unbroke Horse?
HI I'm starting 2 two year old horses.Mare and a gelding Quarter horses.I have gone through all the Parelli games with them.I do not like to use the carrot stick all the time.They're very sensitive.I only have to go to the first phase.I've ben reading John Lyons and any thing else I can get.I also have a great book call Hackamore Reinsman by Ed Connell.I'm going to take my time and use alittle of everyone methods. |
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KathyD
Jul 1st, 2007 - 9:57 PM |
Re: Parelli Level two or John Lyons: Best Start for the Unbroke Horse?
Another thing you can do if he sensitive to the saddle.I use my surclinge with boat bouys attached to the side.It help my horses get used to things on their sides. |
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Felicia
Jul 1st, 2007 - 11:30 PM |
Re: Parelli Level two or John Lyons: Best Start for the Unbroke Horse?
I would also closely check saddle fit. Maybe also try differant brands of saddles on. My mare was cinchy, nasty, and hated saddles, even one which fit perfectly. Had her chiropracted, took her to a saddle fit gal, everything. And in the process a friend loaned me her Big Horn. All problems instantly dissapeared. The Big Horn saddle is rigged farther back (it may be a gaited horse saddle) and has small bar/big tree. My mare has big honking shoulders that have trouble getting clearance with most trees, but the Big Horn gives her plenty of room to move, and also sits alittle farther back. She loves it. So even though I had a couple $1,000 saddles I tried that "fit", it was the make on that one that fit her just right. Of the two I would say Parelli. I like JL, but he very heavily uses a bit, and doesn't teach any seat/leg cues, and my mare hates this approach (again a differant fit for a differant horse). I really like Clinton Anderson's lessons, but I think he is too hard on the horse. So I use his lesson, his goal, but my way of getting there. I don't like his "get used to it" attitude to the horse. My favorite trainer is Klaus Ferdinand Hempfling. He doesn't have a lot of exercises, but he has a very solid philosophy and understanding of horses. So I use his methods, and CA's list of "what a horse should know" when I am starting horses. Good luck! |
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RebelsMom
Jul 2nd, 2007 - 7:36 AM |
Re: Parelli Level two or John Lyons: Best Start for the Unbroke Horse?
Thanks for the replies! I decided to go with the Parelli program. I will start the level two groundwork before we start saddling. It's strange, he isn't sensitive! He just gets snotty and antsy when I try to make him stand for the saddling. He will stand still for mounting but as soon as I get a leg over he makes a B line for a grassy spot. :) The saddle is an ABetta with full QH bars. My baby is tiny, but the saddle works for him. I use a nice thick wool felt pad too. I had tried a Fabtron gaited saddle before. It was tiny in the shoulders and flared up the the back. I'd never seen anything like it. It didn't fit him so I sold it. In the Parelli "Theory Book" it said bigger is better when it comes to gullet so I followed that advice. I really have a great horse! (I don't mean to brag) I was riding with some (mutual)friends yesterday and that made me appreciate how good my horse is! The horse I was riding (not Rebel) was jigging and when someone else got on her, she reared. And this was supposed to be a horse that would "never try anything". It's funny how they always become a spaz when it is *me* on them! Parelli had it drilled into my head get off, and thats exactly what I did! The other gal I was with kept telling me to get back on, then her horse started jigging and freaking and she got a taste of the terror. ;) I do have confidence issues when it comes to riding, my last real riding experience I got bucked into the horn. Scared me to death. Now I feel like it's always whats coming. I know the only way to get over it will be to keep riding but not on a horse that will scare me more. I think I saved my own confidence with getting off yesterday. Thanks! 
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Michael Gonzalez
Jul 2nd, 2007 - 10:22 AM |
Re: Parelli Level two or John Lyons: Best Start for the Unbroke Horse?
As far as what someone posted about not liking to use the carrot stick (or whatever other name they go by - its hte same thing) I just posted online a 6 minute video short using a flag stick and my wild mustang "Hondo". It is never ever about the stick....it is all about you. If you believe your horse hates the stick, what he hates is the way YOU use it. Also, I do infact teach that we should use it sparingly. It is perfectly okay to use it. Look, it is a great desensitizing tool when you put a flag on it. it is no different than a dowel rod with a plastic WalMart sack on the end...people get too hung up on the stick, using it ro not using it, what color it is and what name it is called. Use it. BUT... use it sparingly, justly and consistently. The problems with most flag sticks and training stick useage is that we dont use it consistently...we 'attack' the horses with it. There never seems to be enough confidence inourselves in how we present it. Once you can do what you need to do with the stick, then get ridd of it. What i dont like to see is an upper level student with their upper level horse still usign the stick. At that point, it is a crutch! it is no different than people who continue to round pen their horse every single time they are with them. Remember, Less IS More. I will agree with others here..if your horse doesnt seem ready for the saddle, it is because the saddle doesnt fit well. As most of you know, I love my old beat up Big Horn synthetic saddle. I have used it on hundreds of horses. CONTINUED.... |
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Michael Gonzalez
Jul 2nd, 2007 - 10:43 AM |
Re: Parelli Level two or John Lyons: Best Start for the Unbroke Horse?
As far as there being a hole in the training...FIND IT! You dont want that hole coming back to bite you on the butt sometime later...like on the trail. Most of you know that years ago I used to study what is now PNH. I no longer study PNH solely, but I still keep up with whats going on. I was studying PNH before it became th eLevels program, so that was quite a few years ago. The PNH Games will not leave a hole in your training. IF....IF...you have done them correctly. Look, Parelli, Anderson, Frank Bell, Dennis Reis and a host of others all teach the exact same thing...Anderson adn Parelli teach tem in the exact same order...why is it that no one ever says thhat Anderson leaves holes in thier horsemanship? It is the same thing in the same order just different names. Dont believe me? watch the Level One video or the old 7 Games video..then watch Clinton's Groundwork for Respect vidoe series...EXACTLY THE SAME THING IN THE SAME ORDER!!! Sometimes you guys get all caught up in the pro/anti parelli thing and miss the entire point. parelli's games are basic foundational horsemanship tasks. Period. it is the same thing that Ray Hunt would teach you, or brannaman, or Desmond, or Karen School, gail Ivey, Frank Bell, Dennis Reis, etc., etc., etc. you people get too focued on the names or who is teaching them instead of spending that energy learning together with your horse. And if you cant accomplish these most simple tasks (games) than you should not be bouncing around form one clinciian's methods to another. it is onyl proof that you dont yet have the foundation to be able to pick and choose and understand what is being taught and how to apply it. Look...parelli's games teach these things... Friendly Game - touching your horse's body all over with flags, ropes, garden hose, tarps, saddle blanket, saddle, your hands, holding feet for farrier, handing for vet check ups, clipping, ear cleaning, sheath cleaning, dental work, etc.,etc... Porcupine Game - how else are you going to ask your partner to move forward, backwards, sideways, lower the head, disengage hindquarters, move the forehand, flex laterally, flex vertically et., without having physical contact? it teaches the most basic of yielding to pressure Driving Game - this teaches all the above but does it without contact. This allows you to be able to direct your horse without touching it. Whats the evil in this game? Nothing. How do you teach trailer loadng without this? YO-YO Game - How do you teach your horse to lead and come to you online? how do you safely and quietly ask your horse to back and create space without this game? My mustang and I learned this game in literally ten minutes. I teach this to very young children so they can create a safe bubble of distance and the horse wont stand directly over them. Circle Game - how will you teach transitions without this? C'mon, this is basically "lunging"...all of you have done it at one time or another. You teach transitions, stopping, lead changes, etc. Sideways Game - how do you teach lateral movement and lead changes wiithout this? This is basic. Squeeze Game - how do you teach trailer loading, overcoming tight areas, etc. without this? See folks....my point here is that the OBJECTIVES of these "games" are to complete the most basic foundational requirements that you should complete with your horse and do it in a logical progressive manner so that the horse can transition from one to teh next without much hesistation. it is logical. If it wasnt, Frank Bell, Dennis Reis, Clinotn, karen Scholl, Twila, etc wouldnt be teaching their versions. they understand there is a value in these tasks (games). if yor horse isnt responding, it is because YOu arent presenting it well. I have used it on literally hundreds of horses...and now I am going form start to finish with a BLM mustang and it works. If you cant accomplish what these "Games" are teaching, then you should not be moving on. This is the most simple horsemanship requirements!!! My advice to you...dont bounce around until you have a solid foundation. Study the program that you are studying (whatever that may be) finish it and THEN move on. For some of you out there...if you are studying a little of this and a little of that and you are still havin gissues and uestions, then you are not grounded in your foundation work. You need to finish what you started and THEN move onto somethng else. it wil make everything else easier. Please read my "Training Programs - Are They For You?" article on this site. post a questions and I will try my best to video the answer using my mustang Hondo so you can see how to accomplish the tasks. Hope this helps.... Michael |
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Michael Gonzalez
Jul 2nd, 2007 - 7:53 PM |
Re: Parelli Level two or John Lyons: Best Start for the Unbroke Horse?
Wow...I must have been ranting and raving when I posted the above response....look at all those typos...no, wait...don't look at them! Actually, i was responding from work and didn't have much time so I didnt spell check my response...sorry for the typos.... Michael |
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RebelsMom
Jul 3rd, 2007 - 8:15 AM |
Re: Parelli Level two or John Lyons: Best Start for the Unbroke Horse?
 Thanks, that's exactly what I needed to hear. I need to go back and make sure we have the seven games completely understood for level one. I'll be watching that video... Hondo is beautiful! |
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