Interesting article about the struggles of one "homeschooling" family in Germany.

Here are the highlights:

1. In the summer of 2005, when Melissa was 15, she was told she would have to repeat the seventh grade at the government school because she was failing math and Latin. She had good grades in the rest of her classes.

2. Her parents then tutored her at home to bring her up to speed in those subjects.

3. When the school officials found out, they were angry and then expelled Melissa, so the family began to homeschool full time.

4. The Youth Welfare office then took the family to court because they were homeschooling.

5. Then two days later, 15 police officers and social workers came to the Busekros home and took Melissa away from her parents by force and placed her in the child psychiatric unit.

6. Here's the kicker -- The Nazi's reasoning for taking her away from her family was that Melissa had developed a phobia about school.

To summarize: Apparently, in Germany anyway, if the school system fails to teach your child adequately and you give her a little tutoring on the side you are accused of homeschooling. Then, once that crime has been established, your child can be ripped out of your arms by Nazis with guns, and sent to a psychiatric unit for having a phobia about school.

George Orwell must be turning over in his grave.

Here's the lesson, folks. We're one election away from a similar Nazi mentality here in the United States. DO THE RIGHT THING!

Dave

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

February 5, 2007

HSLDA--German Homeschooled Child Sentenced to a Child Psychiatry Unit

Dear HSLDA Members and Friends:

The situation for homeschoolers in Germany is getting worse each week. Just last Thursday, a 17-year-old homeschooled girl was forcibly removed from her parent's custody by over 15 police officers. The
homeschooled girl has been placed in the child psychiatry unit of the Nuremberg clinic.

Homeschooling is not legal in Germany. There are over 40 cases currently in court or being appealed. Christian families are fleeing Germany for safety in nearby countries. The unconscionable treatment of sincere and faithful Christian homeschool families is a sad legacy from Germany's past. Homeschooling was first banned under Adolf Hitler, and that ban is still enforced today.

Many families who have had their children forcibly taken from their home each day and taken to government school have since fled Germany, but there are still some homeschoolers. The latest incident involves 17-year-old Melissa Busekros, the girl sent to the Nuremberg psychiatry unit. What is being done to this sensitive girl--just to set an example of enforcing the compulsory schooling at all costs--is reprehensible and causing trauma to unassuming and lovable Melissa.

In the summer of 2005, when Melissa was 15, she was told she would have to repeat the seventh grade at the government school because she was failing math and Latin. She had good grades in the rest of her classes, so her parents tutored her at home for those two subjects. When the school officials found out they were angry and then expelled Melissa, so the family began to homeschool full time.

However, the Youth Welfare office then took the family to court because they were homeschooling. Then, on Tuesday, January 30, 2007, social workers and police officers came to the Busekros home and forcibly took Melissa to the child psychiatric unit where she was
questioned for four hours before she was returned home. Then two days later, 15 police officers and social workers came to the Busekros home and took Melissa away from her parents by force and placed her in the child psychiatric unit.

According to Melissa's father, Hubert Busekros, this treatment was justified by the psychiatrist's finding two days previously that Melissa was supposedly developmentally delayed by one year and that she suffered from school phobia.

Nevertheless, one organization concerned with education expressed outrage at the treatment of Melissa Busekros.

"The Netzwerk Bildungsfreiheit [the Network for Freedom of Education] condemns this inconsiderate and totally incommensurate behavior on the part of the officials involved and demands that they give Melissa her freedom and return her to her family immediately," the group was quoted in an article on its website. To view the site, as well as more information and a photograph of the Busekros family, go to
http://www.hslda.org/elink.asp?id=3697 .

Great Gobs of Goosegrease,
Some of you will remember I wrote the German Embassy in the US about a story reporting that Germany didn't tolerate homeschooling -- that was about a year ago. You may remember the Embassy wrote me back defending thir policy in a totally unapologetic manner.
Ron

I'm so glad our parents saw what was happening in that country in the 50's and got the heck out of there.

You're right Dave when you wrote ; "Here's the lesson, folks. We're one election away from a similar Nazi mentality here in the United State."

We will do the right thing. Not sure how to help the family get their little girl back but their must be something we can do.

Exposing the Nazis is the first step, spread the word , that's a start....

Crimes like what is happening to Melissa and her family is not as easy to sweap under the carpet as it was when terrorists like hitler swept the planet. Average folks have the means to communicate worldwide thanks to technological advances which puts a h*llofa leash on nazi types ...

I just filed Melissas' family photo beside my sons' truck photo which was stolen and recovered 100 miles away burned to the ground last week. That was his living. Is it a message that no one is allowed to be free ? I dunno Dave but it seems that if a person has ambition/independence and lives outside that thing called a box the bigwigs try to kill ya mentally , physically or burning their means to make a living, whatever it takes to keep average folk from succeeding... OOOOoooops sorry for ramblin but we've had a h*llova week.

Thanks Dave, I fanned~out your post to others, together we'll try and help little Melissa and her family... (((sigh)))) What a flipping bunch of control freeks....

What's the ole saying? "there's power in numbers" ?
We have to stick together somehow ... Used to be our small wee communities but it's worldwide now....

Do you have any knowledge on that human rights bunch that helps people worldwide?

I would like to take this info a step farther and bombard them with letters from around the world but they are so arrogant (controlling) and smug they wouldn't give a hoot. Ron and I tried a few years ago , we hit bull dung and brick walls.

Tomorrow is another day , whewww...

Bobby,
To some extent I am a political animal. My basic belief about mankind is that we are neither an independent nor a dependent being but instead that we are interdependent. Furthermore unlike some colony beings we don't seem to need everyone but instead some people cooperating through voluntary association.
Given all the preceeding it may sound strange but I believe the people on this site -- Gatto's fans, so to speak -- have it just about right. Home schooling is important because if we can self educate and can assert our self reliance then ultimately we cannot be controled by the self elected elite. Home schooling of ourselves and our children is the first assertion of a free people.
Ron

Hi Ron
You wrote "Home schooling is important because if we can self educate and can assert our self reliance then ultimately we cannot be controled by the self elected elite."

I agree, that's why germany outlaws home education, it's all about controlling the masses, as we've discussed in past discussions.

Our kids spent time in the ps system (sorry to say), we noticed an incredible (positive) change in them after they started homescholaring.

It wasn't easy because the self elected elite here have many hoop and hurdle rules for homeschooling. Fortunately we were registered with a homeschool friendly board. Last year there was an overwelming 30 percent increase in enrollment, likely around the same this year. The ps system is trying their darnedest to lure homeschoolers back using carrot on the stick tactics like offering free computers etc.
It's not ABOUT the kids, it's about the money they're losing. And of course control.

Even with all the hurdles we experience we felt a sense of freedom that we didn't have when they went to school. I dread to think about what our kids would be doing had we left them in ps

Our dtr turned 18 this week. Five weeks ago she made a complete change in careers, from animal care to prepping, sandblasting, welding, repairing big rigs and tanks. The kid is learning fast because she's not afraid to tackel something new, plus she's reliable unlike ps processed people.

Josh wrote below "Germany is not now, nor has it ever been anything that an American would remotely describle as a free country." Our parents knew it, that's why we ended up moving to Canada. My father had an opportunity to run some kind of factory in Africa, given a house and servants as an incentive. Turned the job down because he didn't want to be a slaver.

We could easily end up like germany I'm sorry to say. When you see people running around with rings in their noses on has to wonder if it's meant for a leash.

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

Bobby,
To some extent I am a political animal. My basic belief about mankind is that we are neither an independent nor a dependent being but instead that we are interdependent. Furthermore unlike some colony beings we don't seem to need everyone but instead some people cooperating through voluntary association.
Given all the preceeding it may sound strange but I believe the people on this site -- Gatto's fans, so to speak -- have it just about right. Home schooling is important because if we can self educate and can assert our self reliance then ultimately we cannot be controled by the self elected elite. Home schooling of ourselves and our children is the first assertion of a free people.
Ron

Hi Bobby,

So sorry to hear about your son's truck. He probably pays through the nose for insurance, and now it's going to be even worse. Ugh!

About Melissa ... personally I believe that the German officials are pretty impervious to polite entreaties for them to lighten up on homeschoolers. In one ear and out the other. They have a round file for mailed letters, and a delete key for emailed letters.

I gave up a long time ago trying to interact with our own representatives. I hate putting time into a well-thought-out letter to a congressman only to receive a canned reply that has no relevance to my letter. It's a waste of time. They don't care.

JS will disagree, but the only time we have any say at all is during elections. This next one coming up is pivotal. Imagine Hillary Clinton sitting in the Oval Office with a desk full of papers to either sign into executive orders or ready to be delivered to a Democrat congress for deliberation into law. Imagine that one of those papers is surely to be the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. No congress has yet chosen to ratify it, but you know darn well a Hillary Clinton presidency and a Democrat congress will do it in a heartbeat.

Germany, here we come.

If you don't think that's possible, consider Texas. A supposedly conservative Christian governor just signed an executive order mandating all 11-12-year-old girls receive a new vaccine that's supposed to protect them from STD-type cancer. No public input, no legislative debate, no vote. He signed it, and it's law. Now, Texas parents have a whole new battle to wage on an entirely new front.

Why did this happen? Follow the money. That's it. Plain and simple.

And so it goes. On and on.

Dave

"the only time we have any say at all is during elections"

That conservative Christian governer is a Republican. Before this last election, when we had a Republican President and Congress, what (Democrat) Clinton, Carter, Johnson or Kennedy laws of any significance did they undo? Sure, the thought of Hillary at the helm is horrifying, but she will only proceed in the direction the Decider has pointed us in---Tyranny!
If you still think there's a difference between Republicans and Democrats (Statists-R vs. Statists-D), then as Gatto likes to say, "you've been well schooled"!

--Raul

Hi Raul,

I expected that someone would pick up on the fact that the governor was Republican. But, see, we've got one of those too. In my mind Swarzennegger is a Republican in name only, as he walks, talks and thinks like a Democrat.

So, what's a voter to do, you ask?

OK. I'll agree that in the broad sense there's not much difference between a Democrat and a Republican. That's because they are all politicians, and politicians are basically dishonest, greedy power-mongers. However, in the narrow sense, there is a world of difference between the worst, most-liberal Democrat, and the best, most-conservative Republican. The trick is figuring where your candidate lies on that spectrum and voting accordingly.

I was not fooled by Swarzennegger and got in vehement arguments with Republican friends who had abandoned Tom McClintock. Sad to say, I was right and they were wrong.

As much as some people believe that Bush has been bad for this country, he is light-years better than what Hillary Clinton and a Democrat congress would be. Sure, they are all full of crap, but it's a matter of where they are on the spectrum that relates to your own values and worldview.

If you value your freedom to homeschool and you vote for Hillary because you are miffed at Bush and "want a change," then you have committed educational suicide.

Sadly, that's exactly what I think is going to happen. Stupic, stupid, stupid voters will make Hillary our next president.

Dave

Doesn't matter, Dave. The Decider campaigned on a completely different platform that what he put into effect. He lied to get elected. We have no recourse when they lie and renege on promises ("Read my lips"), when they act in direct ooposition to the oath to protect and follow the constitution. Your vote based on research (being an informed voter) and following the rhetoric of the politicians doesn't make any difference when they "change course" after getting the power of legalized aggression. The media is hyping Lampthrower Hillary big time, you'd think she was already the nominee, but I read this AM that even with this huge media blitz she only has 30-40% of the Dems behind her (probably because she's a war-hawk). It is tempting to think that we can "make a difference", etc., but it's illusion. There are too many fail-safes built into the dialectic for it to work against the interests of the elites. The only recourse is to step out of it, to work for alternatives outside the system, perhaps create nonpolitical, loosely connected networks of folks working toward goals by other means. Like homeschooling, contracted intentional communities, community supported agriculture (meaning buying farm production by subscription, not "supporting with taxes), Bruces microproduction (where possible), even book clubs. The key is to keep it individualized, small (large collectives become tools for facilitators), and focused with clearly defined objectives and to be able to defend it and advocate for it skillfully.

Hi JS,

I'll continue to vote according to the best information that I can get at the time. Sure, Bush was a disappointment, but even knowing that now, if it was Bush against Hillary this time around I'd vote for Bush in a heartbeat in order to keep Hillary out.

In other words, a lieing Bush trumps a known Hillary. Hands down.

You'd have a hard time persuading me that Hillary as president over the past almost 8 years would have been better than Bush.

I don't look at my vote as getting a good guy into office. I basically vote to keep the worst ones out. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. But, if everybody abrogated their duty to vote, guess who would be in charge? Do you really think things would be better that way?

I'll be blunt. If Hillary wins by one vote, and I find out that you refused to vote even though you would have voted against her if you did vote, I wouldn't think very kindly of that. I simply cannot think of any good reason to refuse to vote, and to let the bad guys win. By refusing to vote, you are voting for whoever wins. Think about that.

Dave

I voted for Bush the first time around and I have to live with the knowledge that I may have helped unleash that mess he created, the thousands of dead innocents, the "Patriot" Act, torture, the surveillance state, massive debt, NCLB, power grabbing, possibly even 9/11. Do I think Hillary would be better or would have been better? No. Just different. They are different "wings" of the same team, Hillary supported all of Bush's initiatives.I'm not sure why you think she is so different from Bush. If Hillary wins by one vote, do not the millions of others (roughly 2/3 of the electorate do not vote) who did not vote matter? If Ron Paul makes it on the ballot I may vote, just as a gesture. Most people in this country no longer desire liberty, they want enslavement so I doubt he will do well.BTW, did you see that TIME (maybe it was NEWSWEEK) article by that guy who worked in the Bush administrations "Faith Based initiatives" office? It seems it was routine for the bushies to refer to "F***ing faith based initiatives" to this man's face and ridicule the evangelical Christians as gullible rubes while contemptuously assuming their support. "Where else are they gonna go?"
No.I'll put my faith in God, not politicians. Hillary is no match for Him.

Hi JS,

I'm glad to hear that you voted. That's a start.

To put it in perspective, let's bring it closer to home.

Raul didn't like my statement about voting to at least try to keep the worst candidate out of office. In the broad sense, it's easy to say that all politicians are x, y, z, you name it, so why bother to vote for anybody. But, in the narrow sense, the realistic one, there are definite differences between them. And there are definitely ones that you do not want to be in charge of anything.

Close to home, there is a situation like that on the local school board. There is one school board member who has caused the resignation of a past superintendent, several staff secretaries, two other school board members, and is getting ready to cause the resignation of the current superintendent. Her manipulations and obfuscations have cost the district millions of dollars in lost funds during the district's current building project. She has earned the ire of local contractors who not only will be refusing to bid on any new projects, but are considering a class-action suit against the district. More $$$ lost.

She is one person. Just one person! This is her third term. People know what she is like. They still keep voting her in!!!!!! The school district is self-destructing. It is the laughing stock of professionals everywhere. There is NO progress being made in the district at all ... certainly nothing that benefits children. If there was ever a case where people who don't normally vote should rise up and vote her out of office this is it. Anybody would be better than her. But stupid, stupid, stupid people just keep on doing stupid things.

To the parents of this county, a vote definitely does make a difference. This woman's shenanigans hit these people where it hurts, just like a Hillary presidency would hit me where it hurts, at home, with personal freedoms lost.

Dave

>>>I'm glad to hear that you voted. That's a start.<<

I'm sorry to say I used to be a regular voter, even wore those idiotic little "I voted" stickers like a good little sheep, thinking I was such a noble "informed" patriotic participator. Gag, was I clueless. The presidential election in 2000 was the last time I voted. What's the point. We listen, they lie, we're stuck. Over and over and over....

>>>Raul didn't like my statement about voting to at least try to keep the worst candidate out of office. In the broad sense, it's easy to say that all politicians are x, y, z, you name it, so why bother to vote for anybody. But, in the narrow sense, the realistic one, there are definite differences between them. And there are definitely ones that you do not want to be in charge of anything.<<<<

But Hillary SUPPORTED Bush. Why do you think she is so bad?

>>>>>Close to home, there is a situation like that on the local school board. There is one school board member who has caused the resignation of a past superintendent, several staff secretaries, two other school board members, and is getting ready to cause the resignation of the current superintendent. Her manipulations and obfuscations have cost the district millions of dollars in lost funds during the district's current building project.<<<<<

Are you talking about matching state funds (Plancon money)? It's still tax money. Maybe it's best it was "lost". Our local elementary school was closed and plancon money grabbed to build an addition to another school down the road to house the kids from the school that was closed, a 30 year old school that just needed a new roof. These building issues are just jobs projects for the construction industry, the raping of taxpayers.


>>>>She is one person. Just one person! This is her third term. People know what she is like. They still keep voting her in!!!!!!<<<<

That is because they have been "schooled", Dave. And there are more of them than there are of you.

>>>>> The school district is self-destructing. It is the laughing stock of professionals everywhere. There is NO progress being made in the district at all ... certainly nothing that benefits children. If there was ever a case where people who don't normally vote should rise up and vote her out of office this is it. Anybody would be better than her. But stupid, stupid, stupid people just keep on doing stupid things.<<<<

And you want to perpetuate it?

>>>>To the parents of this county, a vote definitely does make a difference. This woman's shenanigans hit these people where it hurts, just like a Hillary presidency would hit me where it hurts, at home, with personal freedoms lost.<<<<

But they keep voting for her, don't they? What about the freedoms lost under Bush? Don't they concern you? I don't get it. Hilary hasn't done anything to me, yet.She is so despised I doubt she can get elected. But she is a great "scare" tactic for neoconservatives to throw out to make other neoconservatives vote for any candidate they field out just to avoid Hilary.They just have to be sure the Republican candidate claims to be Christian, "born again", whatever, just like Bush did.

Hi JS,

You said: "What's the point. We listen, they lie, we're stuck. Over and over and over...."

My point is that in any election there are the good choices (rare), bad choices (the most common), and the worst choices. If all your voting does is help keep out the worst of the worst, then you have accomplished something. Case in point: Al Gore, John Kerry and, hopefully, Hillary.

You said: "But Hillary SUPPORTED Bush. Why do you think she is so bad?"

1. What Hillary says and does at the moment has nothing to do with what she is and what her long-term agenda is.

2. I'm thinking universal health care, ratifying the UN Rights of the Child, gun bans, re-enactment of the Fairness Doctrine. The list is long. With a Hillary presidency and a Democrat congress, we'll probably see all those things.

You asked: "Are you talking about matching state funds (Plancon money)?"

I purposely stayed away from the actual issue in my description because I didn't want to sidetrack the discussion into a whole anti-tax, anti-public school thing. My point is that there is this school board member who has a thin hold on sanity, and although she is just one person, she has taken ahold of the district almost to the point of Satanic possession. What I was trying to get across is that there definitely are candidates worth voting for if only to try to keep the worst ones out.

You said: "That is because they have been "schooled", Dave. And there are more of them than there are of you."

Right. There is nothing in the Constitution that guarantees that the candidate I vote for must win. My point is that if you don't vote you can't complain if the bad guys win.

You asked: "And you want to perpetuate it?"

Different topic of discussion. My newspaper editorialized against that school bond measure, and if there was a vote to disband public schools entirely I would definitely vote for it.

You asked: "What about the freedoms lost under Bush? Don't they concern you?"

Of course. Bush has been a big disappointment. Prove to me that Gore and Kerry would have been better. Bush was a sneaker, but Gore and Kerry were up front about what they wanted to do to us. So, vote against them and hope that Bush isn't too disappointing.

You said: "They just have to be sure the Republican candidate claims to be Christian, "born again", whatever, just like Bush did."

That's a low blow. Prove to me that Bush is not a born-again believer. He's not perfect. But neither are you nor I.

Dave

Actions speak louder than words.
If you want to defend him, then I challenge you to list ALL the SIGNIFICANT actions he has taken while in office that would qualify him as a Christian.

In my non-humble opinion, he is simply EVIL!

(that ought to stir a response!)

--Raul

Dave says "Satanic possession."

Raul says "Evil."

Someone should form an Exorcist Party for 2008.

Read Chris Hedges American Fascists and see if you think Bush is in good company.

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

Actions speak louder than words.
If you want to defend him, then I challenge you to list ALL the SIGNIFICANT actions he has taken while in office that would qualify him as a Christian.

In my non-humble opinion, he is simply EVIL!

(that ought to stir a response!)

--Raul

Pointless discussion.

Only God and Bush know where he stands with the Lord.

My point is that just because you believe the Bush hatemongers and media hype about him doesn't mean he is not a born-again Christian.

Dave

It may have been a sin for me to say that, but no one "died" if I "lied". That can't be said of The Decider/Deceiver (Bush).

If Hillary Clinton suddenly declared that she was a "born-again" Christian, became President and then proceeded to do all you expect she is likely to do, would you not accuse her of a shameful act of deceit and that she would hold up her Christian faith as a "shield" from scrutiny or criticism. That's exactly how I see Bush, arrogantly DECEITFUL! His criminal actions convict him of this!
To defend him is to suggest that you support his fascist agenda. By no means do I support Hillary, but your responses suggest that you simply prefer fascism over communism. Am I wrong?

No, the point is not over Bush's faith. It is about voting or not.
You are ignoring the fact that if you've agreed to play (or fight) then there will be a winner and a loser and you will be one or the other. YOU, not the one that refused to fight (or play), should not whine about having lost or of the outcome. If Hillary supporters outnumber you, you must accept that she will be your ruler.

As for your school board member, you're just a sore loser. She won "fair and square" in an election you agreed to participate in! You say, "My point is that if you don't vote you can't complain if the bad guys win." Again I say, YOU have not right to complain because you agreed to fight (or play) with no guarantee that your candidate would win!

--Raul

Hey Raul,

Did I step on your toe lately or something? What anger!

You said: "If Hillary Clinton suddenly declared that she was a "born-again" Christian, became President and then proceeded to do all you expect she is likely to do, would you not accuse her of a shameful act of deceit and that she would hold up her Christian faith as a "shield" from scrutiny or criticism. That's exactly how I see Bush, arrogantly DECEITFUL! His criminal actions convict him of this!"

1. It is enirely possible that Hillary could have a life-changing experience that would lead her to become a born-again Christian. As with Bush, the truth of her conversion would be between her and God.

2. It is entirely possible, even likely, that she could fake a born-again experience in order to get elected, and then revert to her old self again afterwards.

3. Since it is unlikely that her conversion would be genuine I still wouldn't vote for her.

4. Assuming her conversion was genuine, I still wouldn't vote for her because a. She's a woman b. She would be too new a Christian to have developed a sincere and mature Christian walk, thus still possibly being dangerous in her office c. There would still be too many pressures on her for her to pander to her old allegiances, etc.

About Bush and Iraq. I don't want to get into a huge flame war about that issue because neither of us really knows the truth about what has gone on behind closed doors.

However, I will say that I know personally people who know Bush. I trust these people's discernment when they say that Bush is a born-again Christian and has a sincere faith. I also know personally soldiers who are in Iraq right now. They have written to me personally to tell me that the media is not telling it the way it really is. That's it's the media that is lying, not Bush.

You said: "YOU, not the one that refused to fight (or play), should not whine about having lost or of the outcome. If Hillary supporters outnumber you, you must accept that she will be your ruler."

I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at. My point with JS was that she should vote even if it's only to help keep the worst ones from being elected.

You said: "As for your school board member, you're just a sore loser. She won "fair and square" in an election you agreed to participate in!"

LOL! Not my school board member. I don't live in that county. I didn't have that school board election on my ballot. The reason why I'm so familiar with that issue is because my wife has sat for hours covering those crazy school board meetings for our newspaper.

You said: "Again I say, YOU have not right to complain because you agreed to fight (or play) with no guarantee that your candidate would win!"

No. People who don't vote disenfranchise themselves from the self-governing system. They excuse themselves from decision-making. They stand on their right to say neither yay, nor nay. So, as people who stand outside the process, they must not complain about whoever gets voted in by people who do believe in participating.

Imagine a kid walking up to a group of kids playing sandlot baseball saying, "I'm not going to play in your silly game, but I insist that you play it my way." Get out of here kid, you don't belong here.

Dave

Dave

>>>No. People who don't vote disenfranchise themselves from the self-governing system. They excuse themselves from decision-making. They stand on their right to say neither yay, nor nay.<<<<

Not at all. They are refusing to participate in the dialectic. The Repubican-statist (thesis) vs the Democrat statist (antithesis) conflict that results in the new synthesis of one of the above "winning" (after compromising) to "win", the new synthesis always being a little further closer to the utopian Total State. Choosing "lesser evils" is still choosing evil, Dave. I'm surprised at you. You see non-voters as still belonging to the system, the state. They see themselves as free men/women refusing to participate in a lose-lose situation, some refusing to accept that other humans are their masters. Simply slowing down the degree of enslavement is not enough. Participating in the dialectic is agreeing to play a rigged game.

>>> So, as people who stand outside the process, they must not complain about whoever gets voted in by people who do believe in participating.<<<

Who made that rule? That's just one of the "rules" the riggers of the dialectic spout to justify oppressing folks who don't accept their rule, to force participation in the dialectic, to round up the herd. It's illogical. Because the game is rigged (and immoral) I refuse to participate and because I refuse to participate in legalized aggression against my fellow man I give up any right to object to oppression??? Sez who???

>>>>Imagine a kid walking up to a group of kids playing sandlot baseball saying, "I'm not going to play in your silly game, but I insist that you play it my way." Get out of here kid, you don't belong here.
<<<<

Huh??? That's not what non-voters are doing. They are saying "We want to play our own game, not be forced to sit off the field paying for you to play your game."

You can't serve two masters, Dave. It's not your place to decide how others should live, who should die, who should be looted, who should sit in luxurious offices making phone calls that doom entire countries or demographics of other humans.

What has Bush done that is consistent with the teaching of Christ?

I dont care if hes a chrstian or not . myslef is atheistic.

I don't care for churches they're too political & self serving.

You'd enjoy a walk~about~with us... Not right now cuz we have way to many feet of snow in the bush ...

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

I dont care if hes a chrstian or not . myslef is atheistic.

Morri writes:

> I dont care if hes a chrstian or not . myslef
> is atheistic.

What flavor of atheist?

Epicurean, Marxist, what?


.

>>>That's a low blow. Prove to me that Bush is not a born-again believer. <<<<

Judge the fruit.

Well, then I suppose you could stand in front of me and tell me to my face that I am not a born-again believer either. I probably have fallen to every temptation known to man, and I fight my sin nature constantly, almost minute by minute ... and often lose.

Dave

So Bush can do whatever he wants because we are all sinners? By that standard then so can Hilary, all she has to do is claim to be a Christian (which I know Bill did). So what's the difference? Where does your tolerance for torture, lying, complete misrepresentation of intentions, etc., etc. end? With proclamations of being "born again"? Or with the label "democrat"? I don't see Bush fighting his sinful nature at all, I don't see any recognition on his part that he is even conscious of sinning. I see nothing but arrogance and delusions of his own deity (being "The Decider").Politicians can't build the City of God, Dave.

JS,

I'm not sure how this discussion got around to where it is here, but I steadfastly maintain my part of it is to discuss why citizens should vote. I refuse to get drawn into a discussion about Bush and the Gulf War. No offense to the people on this board, but all I'm seeing is so much parroting of what the hate-mongering media wants Americans to believe. I don't claim any special knowledge myself other than what the propogandists portray, so I'm not qualified to discuss it.

About voting: The proof is in the pudding. If you vote, you might win. If you don't vote, you'll lose for sure. Stand on your high horse and refuse to vote in protest ... and you set it up for the bad guys to win. It's as simple as that.

A real-life example:

When my county had a school bond measure on the ballot my newspaper editorialized heavily against it. Although the rest of the county voted overwhelmingly for the bond measure, the voters in my circulation area came out in strength against it. To most everyone's surprise, the slam-dunk school bond measure was defeated! It didn't help me make friends in the county, but I am not being assessed for something I didn't want on my property tax.

I ask you JS. As a protest against voting, should I have sat by meekly while the others passed the school bond measure, taxed me, and added one more success to their bureaucratic monster?

Or, did I do the right thing by working within the system to identify a bad thing, mobilize my forces to fight it, vote, and defeat it?

Vote = kill tax. Don't vote = accept the tax. Seems pretty clear to me.

Also real clear to me is that if the measure had passed, anyone paying the assessment who refused to vote against it had better not grump about their high taxes ... at least not in front of me.

Dave

>>>I'm not sure how this discussion got around to where it is here, but I steadfastly maintain my part of it is to discuss why citizens should vote. I refuse to get drawn into a discussion about Bush and the Gulf War. No offense to the people on this board, but all I'm seeing is so much parroting of what the hate-mongering media wants Americans to believe. I don't claim any special knowledge myself other than what the propogandists portray, so I'm not qualified to discuss it.<<<<<

If you don't want to discuss the war I certainly can't force you, but I must object to being described as a "hatemonger" or "parrot" because I do object and am able to say why I do; objections which you have not responded to. If you aren't "qualified" to discuss it then what qualifies you to vote for people who make war? How do you know it is just (if there is such a thing)? Feel free to take that as a rhetorical question.

>>>>About voting: The proof is in the pudding. If you vote, you might win.<<<<<<

Win WHAT??? The right to force my way of life on others (assuming my politicians actually do what they say they are going to do, and none have as yet)? I must have missed the part in the New Testament where Christ said to force other people to do my will at gunpoint.

>>>> If you don't vote, you'll lose for sure.<<<<

Lose what? The right of legalized aggression over other people, the legal right to bully and steal and kill? I can't get too upset about that one.

>>>> Stand on your high horse and refuse to vote in protest ... and you set it up for the bad guys to win. It's as simple as that.<<<<

You don't get it. The bad guys win either way when you participate in the process. Evil wins either way. Aggression, theft, killing, forcible indoctrination, tyranny...those things win when you accept the dialectic as righteous instead of the teaching of the Lord.

>>>>A real-life example:
When my county had a school bond measure on the ballot my newspaper editorialized heavily against it. Although the rest of the county voted overwhelmingly for the bond measure, the voters in my circulation area came out in strength against it. To most everyone's surprise, the slam-dunk school bond measure was defeated! It didn't help me make friends in the county, but I am not being assessed for something I didn't want on my property tax.<<<<

All this tells me is that your way prevailed. Granted, you prevented yourself from being robbed quite as much as you might have been, but you legitimized the process. You told them that you believe that the majority has the right to force it's will on the minority.All you did was slow down the dialectic. It will proceed eventually. It will also fall eventually, but not before great damage is done.

>>>>>I ask you JS. As a protest against voting, should I have sat by meekly while the others passed the school bond measure, taxed me, and added one more success to their bureaucratic monster?<<<<<

I do concede that voting on a very local level may protect you because you may have more influence on a local political bully. But the same ideology applies. It is legalized aggression. Suppose you lost and the majority won the issue. Would you be happy? Would you feel justice was done, that it was righteous that you be robbed because there were more of them than you? Of course not. You won a battle, but the war proceeds. Eventually the district will get their money or they will find a way (if they haven't already) to punish the area that was instrumental to the bond defeat. The dialectic ensures their winning, Dave. They play only by rules that ensure their winning.

>>>>>Or, did I do the right thing by working within the system to identify a bad thing, mobilize my forces to fight it, vote, and defeat it?<<<<<

You merely slowed the process, you didn't stop it. Participation legitimizes it. I agree with Raul and Bruce. Give them enough rope and they can't help but hang themselves with their own evil.Their tyranny will be seen for what it is, instead of "the will of the people" when "the people" refuse to recognize the shell game.

>>>>>Vote = kill tax. Don't vote = accept the tax. Seems pretty clear to me.<<<<

It is your choice, of course. I wouldn't dream of forcing you to not vote or participate in any system of government not of your choice. That is what life is really all about: the choices we make and the fact that WE have to make them.

>>>>Also real clear to me is that if the measure had passed, anyone paying the assessment who refused to vote against it had better not grump about their high taxes ... at least not in front of me.<<<<

You are assuming that voting is even on the level, which it is not. Votes are bought, votes are "lost", votes materialize out of thin air. It is your opinion that others "better not grump" because they did not make the same choice you did, but you have no right to claim they gave up any part of their right of free speech because they refused to recognize the legitimacy of other men to decide to rob them and participate in a system based on aggression and theft.

The most important differentiating factor re: the reality of Bush's sincerity in living by the principles taught by Christ is this: his direct responsiblity for the death of tens of thousands of God's children --- DIRECT RESPONSIBILITY, Dave.

How can a man with such a burden claim with a straight face to be a follower of Christ? It is a tragic lie!

...and there will be people still voting here (to make a difference, of course!) when the US is just like Cuba.

Good luck!

Raul

How can you dislike someone who is successfully mucking up the Gulag? Methinks the lady is doing good, not bad. If the district had more like her, perhaps it would actually die? Sweeeeet .....

Gee wizz.... if she stopped the ******* away of capital dollars on a useless school system and the salivating contractors are all upset.....give the lady a medal and re elect her.... most superintendants are pompous buffooons....so if she has driven a few out of town, vote twice for her reelection!

Hi Bruce,

You said: "Gee wizz.... if she stopped the ******* away of capital dollars on a useless school system and the salivating contractors are all upset.....give the lady a medal and re elect her.... most superintendants are pompous buffooons....so if she has driven a few out of town, vote twice for her reelection!"

On the surface, and especially given how I feel about taxes and bureaucrats, etc., I'd be thinking the same thing. However, in this case, she has wasted thousands already and will cost millions before she is done. This is not just pie-in-the-sky theoretical money. It's real money that county taxpayers are already shelling out in their property taxes.

Like I said earlier, my newspaper editorialized against the bond measure, and if I could have voted in that county I definitely would have voted against it. But, since it passed, and since homeowners are already paying the assessment on their property tax bill, it is extremely egregious for this lady to be flushing a large chunk of it down the toilet through inept management instead of it being used for what it was intended.

I haven't gone into great detail about the lady, but trust me, she's not someone you'd want to bring home to meet the folks. She's downright scarey.

Perhaps you ask how someone like that could get elected three times? The town she lives in is heavily populated by SF Bay Area transplants. The town also has a disproportionally large population of those practicing Wicca and other Satanic religions, and various New Agey things like crystals, pyramids, herbals, etc. The Moon Goddess probably gets pretty heavily worshipped there once a month.

Dave

today, after 6+ years of Bush at the helm?

were you better off after 8 years of Clinton?

were you better off after 4 years of Bush Sr?

were you better off after 8 years of Reagan?

were you better off after 4 years of Carter?

were you better off after Nixon/Ford?

in terms of SIGNIFICANTLY more money in your pocket, more personal freedoms and a general sense of security?

You can't honestly answer yes to any of those questions because we never go backwards (reverse the damage each President and Congress does).

Your logic is equivalent to saying that it is better to be raped and not beaten vs. raped and beaten.

If you choose to vote (albeit, for the lesser evil), then you bargain that if you lose, you will accept the will of the majority (money or people). The problem with that is that you lose regardless of the election.

An analogy I once read goes something like this: You and I are in a restaurant and as soon as our check comes, I stand up and announce to all patrons that we will take a vote of who, between you and I will pay for everyone's tab. If you participate (vote) and lose, you will have to pay. However, if you stand up in protest that no election will take place...then perhaps we each pay for our own meal and that's it.

I just think the election racket is rigged for me to lose either way.

--Raul

Bingo. A charade played out every few years to provide an illusion of "democratic" participation for the masses.An example of the dialectic that always ends with the masses having the noose just a little tighter, that end being achieved while the hapless "voters" fuss over which pre-chosen master is "better" and miss the big picture. The notion of no master is never a choice in the dialectic.

I got into heated discussions with friends and relatives in California too (I no longer live there, but did grow up in that state).

Schwarzy was/is so clearly a European Socialist. He knows nothing about American Yankee values. I loved it when we said, "Iff ve vant to haff de social programs, ve haff to bring back de businesses to Kahli-fornia." Right! Bring them back, then tax the hell out of them all over again. They're sure to go along with that.

My friends and relatives said, "But we can WIN with Schwarzenegger!" I said, "But what are you winning?"

Time proved me right.

Do you think a true conservative can ever be elected? "Vote for me, and I will NOT give you stuff, you will be encouraged to be more self-reliant." Not gonna fly.

The Decider didn't point us in the direction of tyranny, he just left the course unchanged and hit the accelerator!

Hiya Dave

Crazy stuff going on out there. Yes, our son pays over $5,000 thou a year for commercial insurance and licence plates cost $250 a year. The thieves took the plate so it'll be used for more crimewaves.
We were all together today for kiddos' 18th birthday, yuppers Dave, our baby girl is EIGHTEEN . Anyway he was supposed to hear from the insurance today and didn't so he phoned and the guy is sick Awww don'tcha feel sorry for the poor dweeb, NO not me...
Insurance provided a rental so at least he's working but not for long... Oh well it'll all work out in the dirty laundry

Martha posted below with another site that shows contact where we can can email/snailmail or phone, to help Melissa and her family... So far our small home ed group has contacted the embassy, no word but the wheels of justice are turning... We all need to expose (fan~out) these tyrants for what they are...or we'll be floating in the same boat someday soon...

I hear you about receiving canned replies, can't blame you for not spending a huge amount of time writing letters. Not sure if you remember when I wrote the environment minister who approved taking water from one of our nearby lakes during a waterban for everyone including us who has a waterwell. They approved pumping water cross country to a nearby golf course so that the hockey star Gretskie had green greens to play golf. Meanwhile cattle were dieinno feed or water but the hockey star got to play on green grass... OiY I got one of those canned letter , took a month for the idiot to respond.. He praised me for caring about our environment yada yada more bull dung... Sickening , yup I understand canned...

I have several friends in Texas. Folk in Tesas don't take kindly to being told what to do. A retired police detective friend chose Texas to bed down and enjoy life because Texas had property rights...
Texans aren't stupid... We consider Alberta as the Texas of the north ...

It's always about following the money when it comes to our hard earned taxpayer dollars.

As long as we let them control us it'll go on and on.. It's a flippin gravy train for elitits when the masses are stupified...

G'night partner

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

Hi Bobby,

So sorry to hear about your son's truck. He probably pays through the nose for insurance, and now it's going to be even worse. Ugh!

About Melissa ... personally I believe that the German officials are pretty impervious to polite entreaties for them to lighten up on homeschoolers. In one ear and out the other. They have a round file for mailed letters, and a delete key for emailed letters.

I gave up a long time ago trying to interact with our own representatives. I hate putting time into a well-thought-out letter to a congressman only to receive a canned reply that has no relevance to my letter. It's a waste of time. They don't care.

JS will disagree, but the only time we have any say at all is during elections. This next one coming up is pivotal. Imagine Hillary Clinton sitting in the Oval Office with a desk full of papers to either sign into executive orders or ready to be delivered to a Democrat congress for deliberation into law. Imagine that one of those papers is surely to be the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. No congress has yet chosen to ratify it, but you know darn well a Hillary Clinton presidency and a Democrat congress will do it in a heartbeat.

Germany, here we come.

If you don't think that's possible, consider Texas. A supposedly conservative Christian governor just signed an executive order mandating all 11-12-year-old girls receive a new vaccine that's supposed to protect them from STD-type cancer. No public input, no legislative debate, no vote. He signed it, and it's law. Now, Texas parents have a whole new battle to wage on an entirely new front.

Why did this happen? Follow the money. That's it. Plain and simple.

And so it goes. On and on.

Dave

(NewsTarget) More than 2,600 students were sent home from Maryland schools on January 22 for failing to get required vaccines, and officials are considering pursuing legal action against their parents to force compliance with state vaccination laws.

By law, all students through ninth grade were required to be vaccinated against hepatitis B and chickenpox by January 2. According to Bill Reinhard, spokesman for the Maryland Department of Education, approximately 12,000 students have failed to comply with the new rules. Of those 12,000, the ones who showed up for class on January 22 were suspended.

According to Carol Mowen of Washington County Public Schools, once a noncompliant student has been absent for ten days, "it becomes an issue of truancy," meaning their parents could be charged with breaking compulsory schooling laws.

However, Washington County Assistant Superintendent for Secondary Instruction Donna Hanlin said that before taking such aggressive measures, officials hope to "find out what the road blocks" to vaccination are and encourage parents to have their children immunized.

One well-known obstacle to vaccination is economic difficulties and lack of access to clinics that do vaccinations. However, some parents are also reluctant to vaccinate their children due to potential allergic reactions and other side effects. Critics of compulsory immunization have alleged that many vaccines contain toxic substances and are actually highly dangerous.

"Forced mass vaccination of schoolchildren is medical tyranny at its worst," charged Mike Adams, author of "Natural Health Solutions and the Conspiracy to Keep You From Knowing About Them."

"What school and state officials are essentially saying now is that they will use the threat of violence to force parents into injecting their children with neurotoxic substances known to cause severe harm or even death. It is yet another sign of the utter absence of health freedom in a society whose leaders proclaim to be free."

###

became deathly ill and missed two months of school..

Fortunately we were homescholaring when this new law came about so our kids were saved the agony.

this could have happened as an ordianry pratcicioner aswell.

Please explain your comment.
F

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

this could have happened as an ordianry pratcicioner aswell.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=54135

But expect things to get worse in Europe in the days ahead, as they desperately try to reclaim their national identities. "Ordnung muss sein!"

Thanks for the link Martha.

I wonder offhand how much German law originates between 1933 and 1945.

Not that it has ever been good.

Some years ago a friend of mine got into a typical usenet quarrel with some random German. One thing led to another, and finally my friend sent the guy a package of neonazi propaganda, carefully labeled as such, to his address in Germany.

He was arrested and assisted the police in their investigations for three days before he was able to convince them that he had nothing to do with said propaganda.

Germany is not now, nor has it ever been anything that an American would remotely describe as a free country.





.

you say it is not a free country because of a prohibition of radicalist propaganda? you think everyoone should be allowed to spread bad and dangerous propaganda.?

As in US Constitution.

Freedom of speech means freedom of speech for people that I don't like, or it means nothing. Anyone can grant freedom of speech to people that they approve of, even that they feel neutral about.

I am glad I could clear that up for you.




.

Which is worse, Dave, children being in a psychiatric ward in Germany or in the arms of parents who own them in the United States and believe that children should be disciplined according to "Christian" James Dobson with his Dare to Discipline training manuals, spanked with enough "magnitude" to result in "genuine" tears, or according to the Pearls' To Train Up a Child?
Maybe the case in Germany is just what some so-called Christians needed to defeat any kind of children's rights legislation, including the right to be free from parental violence, from being "disciplined" by weapons that are freely advertised and promoted in the United States.

If anyone wants to try to help the young woman in Germany, instead of using her case as fuel to oppose Democratic presidential candidates and to support Republicans, Libertarians or anarcho-capitalists, the following contact information may help:

http://alternative-learning.org/sblog/index.php

Germany: CONTACT ADDRESSES for Protest regarding 'Melissa Busekros'

Tuesday, February 6, 2007, 12:03 PM
Kontaktdaten für den Protest in Sachen Melissa Busekros
German version also in new 'Deutsch' category

English version

Youth welfare Office
Director: Edeltraud Höllerer
Rathaus
Rathausplatz 1
91052 Erlangen
Tel. +49 (0) 9131 86-2844
Fax +49 (0) 9131 86-2438
Mail: edeltraud.hoellerer@stadt.erlangen.de
Or stadtjugendamt@stadt.erlangen.de

responsible official
Monika Muzenhardt
Mail: monika.muzenhardt@stadt.erlangen.de

Mayor of the town of Erlangen
Dr. Siegfried Balleis
Rathausplatz 1
91052 Erlangen
Fon: +49 9131 86-0
Fax: +49 9131 86-26 92
Mail: ob@stadt.erlangen.de

Local Court Erlangen
Family court
Richterin Frank-Daupin
Mozartstraße 23
91052 Erlangen
Tel. +49 9131-782 01
Fax +49 9131/782-361
(no Emailadress available)

Minister of justice in Bavaria
Beate Merk
Prielmayerstr. 7
80335 München
Tel. +49 89 5597 1799
Fax +49 89 5597 3580
Email: beate.merk@stmj.bayern.de

Clinic Nürnberg-Nord/Psychatrie
Prof.-Ernst-Nathan-Str. 1
90419 Nürnberg
chief physician: Prof. Jörg Wiesse
Email: joerg.wiesse@klinikum-nuernberg.de

Assistant medical director : Dr. Schanda
(responsible for the survey of Melissa)
Tel: 0911-398-3877
Fax: 0911-398-3261

Email: KJP_B@klinikum-nuernberg.de
axel.froelich@klinikum-nuernberg.de

--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---

Replying to:

Interesting article about the struggles of one "homeschooling" family in Germany.

Here are the highlights:

1. In the summer of 2005, when Melissa was 15, she was told she would have to repeat the seventh grade at the government school because she was failing math and Latin. She had good grades in the rest of her classes.

2. Her parents then tutored her at home to bring her up to speed in those subjects.

3. When the school officials found out, they were angry and then expelled Melissa, so the family began to homeschool full time.

4. The Youth Welfare office then took the family to court because they were homeschooling.

5. Then two days later, 15 police officers and social workers came to the Busekros home and took Melissa away from her parents by force and placed her in the child psychiatric unit.

6. Here's the kicker -- The Nazi's reasoning for taking her away from her family was that Melissa had developed a phobia about school.

To summarize: Apparently, in Germany anyway, if the school system fails to teach your child adequately and you give her a little tutoring on the side you are accused of homeschooling. Then, once that crime has been established, your child can be ripped out of your arms by Nazis with guns, and sent to a psychiatric unit for having a phobia about school.

George Orwell must be turning over in his grave.

Here's the lesson, folks. We're one election away from a similar Nazi mentality here in the United States. DO THE RIGHT THING!

Dave

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

February 5, 2007

HSLDA--German Homeschooled Child Sentenced to a Child Psychiatry Unit

Dear HSLDA Members and Friends:

The situation for homeschoolers in Germany is getting worse each week. Just last Thursday, a 17-year-old homeschooled girl was forcibly removed from her parent's custody by over 15 police officers. The
homeschooled girl has been placed in the child psychiatry unit of the Nuremberg clinic.

Homeschooling is not legal in Germany. There are over 40 cases currently in court or being appealed. Christian families are fleeing Germany for safety in nearby countries. The unconscionable treatment of sincere and faithful Christian homeschool families is a sad legacy from Germany's past. Homeschooling was first banned under Adolf Hitler, and that ban is still enforced today.

Many families who have had their children forcibly taken from their home each day and taken to government school have since fled Germany, but there are still some homeschoolers. The latest incident involves 17-year-old Melissa Busekros, the girl sent to the Nuremberg psychiatry unit. What is being done to this sensitive girl--just to set an example of enforcing the compulsory schooling at all costs--is reprehensible and causing trauma to unassuming and lovable Melissa.

In the summer of 2005, when Melissa was 15, she was told she would have to repeat the seventh grade at the government school because she was failing math and Latin. She had good grades in the rest of her classes, so her parents tutored her at home for those two subjects. When the school officials found out they were angry and then expelled Melissa, so the family began to homeschool full time.

However, the Youth Welfare office then took the family to court because they were homeschooling. Then, on Tuesday, January 30, 2007, social workers and police officers came to the Busekros home and forcibly took Melissa to the child psychiatric unit where she was
questioned for four hours before she was returned home. Then two days later, 15 police officers and social workers came to the Busekros home and took Melissa away from her parents by force and placed her in the child psychiatric unit.

According to Melissa's father, Hubert Busekros, this treatment was justified by the psychiatrist's finding two days previously that Melissa was supposedly developmentally delayed by one year and that she suffered from school phobia.

Nevertheless, one organization concerned with education expressed outrage at the treatment of Melissa Busekros.

"The Netzwerk Bildungsfreiheit [the Network for Freedom of Education] condemns this inconsiderate and totally incommensurate behavior on the part of the officials involved and demands that they give Melissa her freedom and return her to her family immediately," the group was quoted in an article on its website. To view the site, as well as more information and a photograph of the Busekros family, go to
http://www.hslda.org/elink.asp?id=3697 .

Your text sounds incredibly funny , at least the references do. 2. I donot know what you aim for.
The danger of home schooling is obvious. Homestudied students can be easily told radical opinions . stateschool is neurtral. there is no commercial or ad of anykind allowed in schools teachers have to neutral to politics.
Children are not made for being the next emission wasting ceo of one another company that jzust tries to set the amount of wins higher unaaware if anything collapses.
who should teach foreign langauges at homeschooling . my parents couldnt teach me french or english.. By the way , modern school is not boring.The aim is to create talks not frontal blind teaching.

Go right ahead.

Me, I prefer liberty.




.